So all this chat on non-zero sum/zero sum has me thinking about a phenomena I'm sure you have noticed as well...
Is there a relationship between zero-sum and the particular attraction people have towards the idea that Jesus Christ died for your sins?
How often do you hear "he died for you"?
I can't be alone in this experience.
All thoughts appreciated
Bonds And Money
1 year ago
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I got hooked on this song from a zombie movie of all places. It got me into some rabbit hole about plows and oxen. Also, I found out that Johnny Cash attended Queen Elizabeth's coronation.
But that's off topic.
What I've always thought odd about that statement (HDFY, sinner!) is that lots of people have died for us (soldiers, cops, childbirth). And beyond that, wouldn't most people sacrifice themselves if put in the same situation?
And why was he put in that situation? What a bad-tempered diety! And according to the trinity, wasn't he both the bad guy and the good guy? And wouldn't he/they be bored if there weren't any more people? And since there's an afterlife he didn't really die (as defined as cognition ceasing to exist).
Perhaps ironically, I'm not religious but I think that I'd get along well with the various prophets if I met them. They seemed to genuinely want people to be nice to each other. Then their followers go on crusades and jihads. Terrible.
All true
AND
HDFYS ;-)
As did all those others as you correctly point out
There have been a lot of people over the ages watching our collective backs.
All I can say is "thanks" over the internet to all of them
I was raised Catholic so of course heard this often as the idea Jesus died to cleanse us of original sin is central to Christian faith. What is fascinating is the connection between the doctrinal mission of Jesus and his death and the Eden myth.
I slowly came to the conclusion that religious belief had no place in my life over time in my late 20's and early 30's. This was primarily based on the long standing philosophical question of the problem with evil and an inability to shoehorn the religious narrative into unconvincing explanatory models of natural theology.
None the less, I continue to find the study of religion and religious belief fascinating, in particular the psychology of religious belief. I once read a paper on religion by Carl Sagan where he talks about cultural influence and why people in the middle of Texas never have religious awakenings and wake up one day suddenly believing in a Ganesha the elephant god as remover of obstacles. Hysterical.
The Eden myth and original sin is central to the concept of Christ coming to earth and dying for our sins. You really cannot have one without the other yet most Christians see the former as an old testament fairy tale not to be taken literally while still buying into the latter but having no idea why Jesus needed to die for us. Just that he did. No one I have ever met really has examined their belief system deeply enough to even spot this inconsistency let alone make an attempt to resolve it.
Since recorded history there have been over 10,000 known religions reportedly. If you are interested in why people believe these things this is a good book.
On a day to day basis I do admit I see religion giving people a great sense of comfort during difficult times despite the just criticism of how such ideology can be used for great evil. None the less it has been said that when you go to church one must check ones brain at the church house door. I would concur.
Since it is such a fun subject but in armed only with an iPhone, perhaps JP will honor us with a post on religion and fractals. ;-)
Thai, thanks for the pot link. Lots of interesting debate. In particular on the second hand smoke issue and psychosis issue. I am less convinced than that guy on those issues as being of significant concern but that is another post.
"I once read a paper on religion by Carl Sagan"
Wasn't he awesome?!?
"The Eden myth and original sin is central to the concept of Christ coming to earth and dying for our sins. You really cannot have one without the other"
This I did not know! I thought God was just fed up in general with humanity so was going to wipe us out until JC intervened.
And there would be precedent for this omnipotent moodiness:
*Messing with Job just to see what would happen
*Kill Isaac, no wait, just kidding!
"On a day to day basis I do admit I see religion giving people a great sense of comfort during difficult times"
I'm conflicted. It stops the pain of loss, but perhaps people need to reason through the pain to become fully mature. "Mature" may not be the word that really relates what I mean.
Maybe "agree with me" is the term ;) You know, that this finite time of conscious experience is incredibly lucky and is the result of some really outragous and statistically near-impossible events. Appreciate it and try to use your neurons for the best experience. Including cooperating so other sapients(including future born) can have pleasant experiences as well. Not as nice as "you get to live forever in heaven" I admit, but not too bad either.
"despite the just criticism of how such ideology can be used for great evil"
Huge evil. It overrides the instinctual safeguards of "This act is wrong. I don't want to be a bad person. I won't do it" with "This act is wrong. God wants me to do this act because the victim is bad. I will still be a good person. I will do it". So freaking dangerous.
"armed only with an iPhone"
And still the sensei will manage to whip our asses. Plus, JP only fights on weekdays.
Yes Carl Sagan was awesome Dink.
It is a testament to the nature of man as well as the malleable characteristics of religion that this little fact of Christ visit being do to the need to absolve us of original sin is no longer that important or even trotted out in anything but the most fundamental of Christian theologies. I can see why you would think it was just do to a crazy God.
I wonder what those whose fellows in the 4th century were thinking when they put the old and the new books together. Angry, jealous, crazy God now with new and improved on Prozac God.
I do not mean to sound elitist but I do not think most people are capable of a world view without religion. It can be too scary.
I'm sympathetic to that idea
Okie is right, I have found a kind of religion in fractals nature of the universe (if nihilism can really be considered a religion) and it does take the sting out of the worst aspect of nihilism, at least for me.
I accept cooperation willingly having found no other alternative.
I do not accept it blindly however for all forms of cooperation, except to the nebulous concept of the collective. But understand this is not to any one person's particular view of what the collective should look like.
In the end we all make our own reality.
By the way, nice comment Dink
"if nihilism can really be considered a religion"
We need a nice name for this belief system.
Klugism?
Dogma: Existence is kind of a mess, but lets try to make the best of it since were here anyway?
And the externality is... ? ;-)
If you've found more I'm listening. ;-)
To paraphrase JS Mill: A personally rewarding faith is needed to replace the untenable belief in eternal life and for everyone to feel in some way they are contributing to human progress.
We all must have our "religion".
No, let's say I think I'm probably wrong but I want to defend something
The fractal/we create our own reality thing is the part of the system we participate in with our daily lives. This is only one boundary in the system however.
How do you reconcile your own observation that the universe is fractal?
LOL!
Trust me, no fractal talk in real life so I doublt I would seem so odd (who knows?)
Please understand JP that at some level, I agree with Dehaene that math is an illusion. So in a sense, the fractal becomes an artifact of our mind trying to understand things.
Re: "I think the physical universe is bound by certain irrational (in the number sense) geometric boundary conditions. That is to say that the value of e and pi are fixed where they are for this universe due to the underlying geometry."
Agreed
These are not incompatible concepts
Think of my nihilism as saying I see a viewpoint where there must therefore be all these other universes.
Byt from the viewpoint of mine/our universe, nihilism is a relative.
I'm kind of flipping viewpoints a bit casually.
We agree that our universe is both fractal and bounded if that makes sense.
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