It took me a long long time to realize what mysticism was, and that I was a mystic.
Oddly enough, you MAY NOT BELIEVE THIS, BUT...
If I said that I was a mystic in the Bible belt, in the company of some of those people who I get the feeling that most people reading this blog don't understand and can't even believe exist, they would probably eye me strangely, and move stealthily towards the edge of their seats in much the same way that...
You get the point.
I had my first mystical experience when I was 14 years old.
It was pretty exciting, and did not scare me at all.
It was outside my piano teacher's house, while waiting for a lesson.
I was standing underneath his weeping willow, and all of a sudden...
No, the heavens did NOT open, and I did NOT see a vision of the Father, the Son, etc etc.
Something about the structure of that willow's leaves (are they leaves ?).
The... MATHEMATICAL regularity of those willow leaves looked a lot like what I saw in Van Gogh's paintings.
So, obviously, TO ME, I was seeing this scene LIKE Van Gogh had seen it.
I was seeing LIKE Van Gogh saw.
(The mystical experience was in the WAY that I was seeing, not in seeing LIKE Van Gogh.)
Lots of people think that Van Gogh was a loony. Probably Van Gogh thought he was a loony too. His family.
Not me.
I think that Van Gogh had mystical experiences of SEEING THE WORLD in a DIFFERENT WAY. Particularly nature, of course. And that unfortunately, he did NOT have access to a mentor who could help him understand the nature of his gift, and his severely... PROTESTANT upbringing must have made it very very difficult for him to understand what was happening to him. Like another man. Carl Gustav Jung.
Of course... this is ANOTHER form the question of POINT OF VIEW takes.
Consciousness, if you like.
Which brings us back to Doctor John's post on ketchup a short while ago, and his commentary on direct vs indirect experience. You cannot learn mysticism from a book, not from reading ABOUT it.
There is NO MORE DIRECT experience than mystical experience, I believe. There is no ABOUT in mystical experience.
(What is the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN I believe and I think ? Another.. rabbit hole.)
These days, my mystical experiences have become an integrated part of my existence.
This WAY OF SEEING is like a warp that goes through my entire existence. It bears my.. DAILY, ROUTINE EXISTENCE up. Gives it intense meaning.
It.. scares some people.
It used to scare me. Not any more.
Of course, one of the BIGGEST PROBLEMS with mystical experiences is that they exist at the very spot where language.. comes together ? Fails ?
You can't talk ABOUT them.
So... what do you do ?
You make the words do what mystical experience does.
You.. LET the words do what mystical experience does.
You let the.. notes, the fingers do what mystical experience does.
A translation ? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know.
One last thing.
Lots of people seem to think that mysticism=God.
Na. It's a lot more complicated than that. A LOT more.
Who knows ?... YOU may be having mystical experiences, but you don't recognize them as such.
Are they mystical EVEN IF YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE THEM AS SUCH ?
Those rabbit holes...
28 comments:
Re: "If I said that I was a mystic in the Bible belt, in the company of some of those people who I get the feeling that most people reading this blog don't understand and can't even believe exist, they would probably eye me strangely, and move stealthily towards the edge of their seats in much the same way that... "
Hogwash
Having been accused but other nutcases on the blogs of being either a New Ager, a Deepak Chopra or into intelligent design (all untrue... though there is probably slightly more truth in the Deepak Chopra reference than the others labels, but still only a little.
So for the record, this is pure nonsense.
I think I have made it quite clear that I think We Are All Connected like many of my heroes have similarly understood.
... But it's true, that I'm not a mystic as most tend to think of the term.
I do know that tertiary syphilis cause dementia and perceptual disturbances. That is the only connection I can come up with between these two topics of "Mysticism and VD". I am with Thai I think. I have no idea what you experienced but I refuse to interpret such things outside of the physical world. If you cannot learn it in a book, I will never experience it I guess.
I think my next post on consciousness is going to go into fractals for several posts or we will have a hard time getting back to my original post on aspect.
Forgive me
I think it is the infectious or butterfly effect aspect of the two that Deb is referring to.
... At least this is how I'm interpreting her simile
I am very concrete.
It boggles my mind to believe that a mystical experience is anything more than an insight, a sudden realization, an awakening, a kind of sudden, deep-felt idea or an enlightening experience. A mystical experience was what the human Jesus had, but he called it the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the onset of his kingdom of heaven just as surely as a mystical experience is the onset of the mystical state. And the mystical state? In today's world the mystical state has been called, ultimate reality. A mystical experience is a realization that arrives from within one's own mind by placing a penetrating curiosity at familiar, obvious and known things, and things we take for granted. After all, there are things we learn superficially, on the surface, and they are things that must be learned...intuitively! We now have the basis for looking at things we already know and that we take for granted. This solid foundation is from Koestler, Whitehead, Doyle, Shaw, Gibran, Huxley, Hegel and indeed, others. Whitehead, for example said, "Familiar things happen and mankind does not bother about them. It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious." Only one more: Hegel said, "Because it's familiar, a thing remains unknown." Enough for now.
Emmanuel Karavousanos
Author and Speaker
Yes, Emmanuel.
Mystical experience STARTS with the concrete physical world IN MY EXPERIENCE.
Um.. what PART of this sentence that you quoted did you think was hogwash, Thai, as it is a rather complex sentence in my book ?
Since there are several ideas in it, I would like you to clarify.
As for being a mystic, Thai, I think that the way you SEE fractals is probably akin to THE WAY I SEE... ?
I won't put an OBJECT down there.
Once again, it is in the WAY of seeing that mysticism can be explored, at least.
Now.. TALKING about it is another ballpark altogether.
Doctor John.. did you learn EVERYTHING you "know" (know or believe, the distinction can be important) IN A BOOK ?
Did you learn how to walk in a book ?
Did you learn how to speak in a book before you could read ??
I think not.
Lots of things CAN'T be learned in books.
Because the physical world can and will NOT be reduced to what's IN books.
I agree with Emmanuel that it is the OBVIOUS which presents the most challenge to our thinking.
Because we rarely, if ever, train our consciousness on it.
To me, the mystical experience involves the way I connect my perceptions of the world together to impart meaning to them.
This is dry language, however.
Reading it will NOT give you any idea about mystical experience.
People like... Emily Dickinson, Gerard Manley Hopkins, the POETS are our best.. MENTORS for translating mystical experience and making it accessible for others.
And Emmanuel, I am not sure that mystical experience NEED be sudden. If it is a WAY of seeing things, then it infuses all of our perception. It CAN be carried forward through our daily acts to give them meaning.
You are talking about... epiphany, in the Joycean sense of the word (James Joyce, Irish writer, end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century. Joyce wrote about epiphany, and you can see it at work in "Dubliners", his collection of short stories.).
And the Holy Spirit ? It is one of the NAMES that we give to a particular... ASPECT of mystical experience.
Emmanuel.. we have had the base for mystical experience for a hell of a long time.
Saint Francis was a mystic.
Other saints were mystics.
Mysticism did not wait for the philosophers to show up.
The poets were there perhaps a long time before.
Mysticism and art go hand in hand, too, art as TRANSLATION of mystical experience, as I said with Van Gogh.
And Thai ?
I am bringing up mysticism because it is an.. ASPECT of consciousness. I suppose that you know this already.
As a 77-year old dinosaur I am most pleased to kick mysticism around. May I add that mysticism is an attainable state of mind. It is the ability to immediately see ALL thoughts as disturbances to peace of mind. Indeed, freedom of thought, by definition, means peace of mind. When a mystic reaches that most special state, he or she has no need to announce the state they have attained. That is recognize by others in a new healthy behavior. The mystic lives in the so-called present where he or she does not allow thoughts to become a neuroses or, a hang-up if you will. A mystic takes things as they come and can act spontaneously. Like insight, realization, enlightenment, an epiphany is exactly the same thing. We use different words for the same deep, penetrating realization which is a gift of nature, God or whatever you wish to call it. I am convinced it is a gift we give our selves once we change course and begin to analyze thoughts and see them for what they really are.... Thoughts are just that -- thoughts. On some we get "hung-up" and on others we let them enter and leave quickly. But they are all THOUGHTS -- disturbances to peace of mind. Only when one attains that state is all this realized. You are right when you say that reading it will not give you any idea about that experience. The mystical experience can ONLY be sudden. It is the mystical state that can be reached over time by learning virtually everything. One can, over many years, gain a clear mind (freedom of thought)and attain the higher state (mystical state) through wisdom. You suggest that a mystical experience need not be sudden. A mystical experience can ONLY be sudden at which time it brings on the mystical state. Again, Jesus' Holy Spirit IS a mystical experience which brought on his mystical state -- the kingdom of heaven which he was obviously trying to transmit. He found out it was not so easy to do when he said, 'My kingdom is not of this world." I am not sure what you mean by saying that we have had the base for a mystical experience for " hell of a long time." What base are you talking about? I suggest that the basis for attaining a mystical experience is to analyze things we already know and which are known only on the surface, superficilly and not intuitively. That can only arrive through the analysis of familiar, obvious and known things, and things we take for granted. These are our thoughts.... This is why Buddhists look inward. The Bhagavad Gita says, "Only that yogi whose joy is inward, inward his peace, and his vision inward shall come to Brahman and know Nirvana." You suggest Van Gogh was a mystic. I seriously doubt it since he took his own life. There was no peace of mind in this man.
Well, Emmanuel..
I DON'T think that mysticism=peace of mind.
That sounds like a Buddhist... PREJUDICE to me.
I don't care for Buddhism very much, although I get the feeling that lots of American people think that Buddha was... BETTER than Jesus.
I don't think that mysticism=peace of mind for the reason that I think it is the capacity to live whatever experience presents itself to us in the most VITAL, VIBRANT, ALIVE manner possible. Suffering AND joy.
And peace of mind ?
That sounds dangerously close to... peace of mindlessness to me.
And I should add that the concept of mysticism=spiritual health is a rather eugenist way of envisioning the problem too.
I don't care for eugenics at all.
But I think that probably there is not ONE mysticism that we will agree on.
Because.. MY mysticism corresponds to a way of seeing the world that i have constructed over time, through what one could call the integration of my personal history, my connection with my society and culture. This kind of construction is.. UNIQUE to me, like YOUR construction is unique to you. It is what we call a "bricolage" in French. A make do way of being in the world.
Funny that you should cite Jesus' "my kingdom is not of this world" as an example because for me... THIS statement is about as ANTI MYSTIC a statement as Jesus could possibly have come up with. (Jesus is not an... IDOL for me.)
No.. a mystic kingdom IS a kingdom of this world.
And ironically enough.. as I exhaust myself trying to tell the Jehovah's witnesses (;-)), the kingdom of God is ALREADY in the world. It is HERE.
For he/she who WANTS to see it. Who CAN see it.
And this is what mystic experience is all about, as you point out. Seeing what is ALREADY there, but that you could not see before because of prejudices, because you did not have the intellectual/spiritual tools to see it (like Freud, for example...).
Since you are interested in philo, we could discuss how Plato's philosophy, the "fiction" of the apparent world opposed to the "reality" of the world of ideas has profoundly influenced the way we frame this debate.
Plato's influence is so pervasive that it has fashioned our CONSCIOUSNESS in a particular way to obscure much of what mysticism (my definition, at any rate...) is.
Well, Emmanuel..
I DON'T think that mysticism=peace of mind.
That sounds like a Buddhist... PREJUDICE to me.
I don't care for Buddhism very much, although I get the feeling that lots of American people think that Buddha was... BETTER than Jesus.
I don't think that mysticism=peace of mind for the reason that I think it is the capacity to live whatever experience presents itself to us in the most VITAL, VIBRANT, ALIVE manner possible. Suffering AND joy.
And peace of mind ?
That sounds dangerously close to... peace of mindlessness to me.
And I should add that the concept of mysticism=spiritual health is a rather eugenist way of envisioning the problem too.
I don't care for eugenics at all.
But I think that probably there is not ONE mysticism that we will agree on.
Because.. MY mysticism corresponds to a way of seeing the world that i have constructed over time, through what one could call the integration of my personal history, my connection with my society and culture. This kind of construction is.. UNIQUE to me, like YOUR construction is unique to you. It is what we call a "bricolage" in French. A make do way of being in the world.
Funny that you should cite Jesus' "my kingdom is not of this world" as an example because for me... THIS statement is about as ANTI MYSTIC a statement as Jesus could possibly have come up with. (Jesus is not an... IDOL for me.)
No.. a mystic kingdom IS a kingdom of this world.
And ironically enough.. as I exhaust myself trying to tell the Jehovah's witnesses (;-)), the kingdom of God is ALREADY in the world. It is HERE.
For he/she who WANTS to see it. Who CAN see it.
And this is what mystic experience is all about, as you point out. Seeing what is ALREADY there, but that you could not see before because of prejudices, because you did not have the intellectual/spiritual tools to see it (like Freud, for example...).
Since you are interested in philo, we could discuss how Plato's philosophy, the "fiction" of the apparent world opposed to the "reality" of the world of ideas has profoundly influenced the way we frame this debate.
Plato's influence is so pervasive that it has fashioned our CONSCIOUSNESS in a particular way to obscure much of what mysticism (my definition, at any rate...) is.
And Emmanuel ?
Welcome to the saloon...
I've written tons of other stuff here that TRANSLATES what I feel about mysticism WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT IT. ;-)
Feel free to check out what i have written, and what our fractal mystic, Thai, has also written.
Thai's mysticism is not as evident as mine, perhaps, but it IS here.
Please feel free to.. wander about the saloon, and engage with ALL of us.
Welcome.
Oops, double comment.
Blogger fucked up.
Or.. I didn't TRUST Blogger to not squelch my comment. Rats...
Debra,
I did not say that Mysticism = peace of mind. I said that freedom of thought equals peace of mind. "Mysticism is the beliefs, ideas or mode of thought of mystics. It is the doctrine of an immediate spiritual intuition of truths believed to transcend ordinary understanding." When one has a mystical experience, he or she understands. Here we are talking about an experience of mind as something personal. With Eugenics you move into changing a whole race of people, not the individual self. I can certainly understand that you want nothing to do with Eugenics. Remember, when it occurs, a mystical experience takes place only in the mind of the person experiencing it. It is an individual's choice to seek the mystical state. As I'm sure you know, intellect has nothing, but nothing to do with a mystical experience. That experience is something that is the result of looking in the right direction. It requires looking at things we have taken for granted and believe there is nothing more to learn. As Whitehead said, "It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious." A mystic sees joy and sandness in the same way and accepts both for what they are: things that can take us away from the so-called ... present!
Hmmm.
I fucked up. I didn't mean to say eugenics, I meant to say hygienics...
You stuck quotation marks in. That means you are quoting whom, please ?
I disagree with your reserves on intellect.
The intellect CAN be a source of mysticism.
At least... the intellect/mind AS IT IS INCARNATED in our physical bodies.
I disagree with being taken away from the present.
Once again, for me, mystical experience is all about the abolition of time as we know it, and the expansion of the present to occupy ALL "time".
You did not take into account my comments on the kingdom of God.
I take exception to two words in your quote :
"doctrine", and "transcend".
The mysticism that i'm talking about is NOT a doctrine (doctrine, like... "doxa", right ?) and it is NOT transcendant either.
We could say that... transcendance is a particularly... MONOTHEISTIC way of framing the problem. Perhaps not exclusively monotheistic, but it is definitely something that Judaïsm explored to a high degree.
Judaïsm is an extremely complex religion. And Judaïc mysticism DOES exist. I am not competent to go into details about it.
Immanence is on the opposite end of the spectrum from transcendance.
And I am talking about mysticism from the IMMANENCE perspective, NOT the transcendance one.
This tension between transcendance and immanence is something that can be seen, MAYBE (I'm not sure...) in the difference between Judaïc transcendance, and its total refusal to envisage INCARNATION of the divine, and Christianity, where Christ is God incarnate.
But here again, I am NOT competent to go into all the very fine points that the early fathers of the church devised to try to hold in tension transcendance/immanence without falling into.. idolatry...
And Emmanuel ??
HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MYSTICISM INSTEAD OF LIVING IT.
Are you sure that YOU are a mystic, if you spend so much time talking ABOUT it ?
That's a trap, you know. A big one.
I no longer read spiritual books.
I will not read Carl Jung's spiritual journey.
Because I don't NEED to read Carl Jung when I already have.. MY journey.
Debra,
The quote below is from the Random House Dictionary defining "mysticism." Of course you have the right to say what you think and that is the beauty in our United States. You write that I used the words "doctrine" and "transcend." They were simply part of the quote from the Random House Dictionary.
By the way, I never said I was a mystic. A true mystic has no need to advertise it.
Doctrine and doxa have nothing to do with each other. Doxa, to the best of my knowledge, is not an English word. It is a Greek word meaning, praise. In Greek it is said, "Doxa Theo," meaning, praise God.
Emmanuel Karavousanos
Author, Speaker
Thank you for correcting me on doctrine/doxa, Emmanuel.
I can see the difference between the two.
I was brought up a Protestant, and it was only recently that the idea of adoration hit my consciousness as something to be explored.
I find it unfortunate but inevitable that our own religious traditions COULD be the starting place for our own mystical journey/search ? but that since they have been dulled down, and many of us unfortunately do not dust off the words to try to infuse them with new meaning for us, we shrug them off, or content ourselves with going through the motions without understanding.
So... am I NOT a mystic because I'm "advertising" ?
This COULD get us into discussions about intricating mysticism with the prophetic aspect of human existence.
To me, at any rate... mysticism and prophecy go hand in hand.
Which means that... Jesus was advertising, then, right ? ;-)
Was Jesus advertising!?! He was telling everyone about his Father in heaven. He was the light, the bread, the way, etc. I don't know when the word "mystic" was first used, but it too originates from Greek "mystikos" and it means, secret. Yes, Jesus was a mystic and was certainly advertising it. People believed him and what has happened is this: they pray to him and to his Father in heaven and fail to look inward and to analyze their thoughts and their thinking. That is where insight, mystical insight, can, with time, be triggered. And the miracles? The miracles were all made up. When he healed the blind he made people "see" the way to spiritual growth. When he got people to rise from the dead it was because they rose from the spiritually dead. When he healed the sick, they were healed from the spiritually sick. Paul, St. Paul, sold Jesus and he was successful. I'm not sure if Paul and Jesus are not one and the same! Crazy? Maybe not! Remember, this supposedely too place 2000 years ago. Often we don't know what happened yesterday.
Emmanuel Karavousanos
Author and Speaker
Na, Emmanuel, we don't agree on this.
You know, our ancestors fought long, hard, and bitterly about the MEANING of Communion (among other things..)... (And I wish that I had more knowledge about the history of our Christian churches, because, when we go to Church, we don't learn the HISTORY of our institutions, or the leaders of our institutions, we learn.. the Bible. Pretty elementary for understanding your faith, and where you come from, right ?)
Is Jesus IN THE WAFER ? Are we called upon to believe that Jesus is PHYSICALLY PRESENT IN THE WAFER, (transsubstantiation), OR... is the wafer a SYMBOL of Jesus ?
The first is the CATHOLIC interpretation of Communion. It makes Communion... a MYSTICAL experience of physical reality, and immanence, maybe ? I'm not sure. Transsubstantiation is.. MAGIC. (Lots of reasons why the Catholic Church had strong ties to a magical way of seeing the world..)
Now... the PROTESTANT Communion is not magic at all. It is very.. RATIONAL. It does NOT test our capacity to believe at all. And.. the wafer as a SYMBOL of Christ's body subtley shifts the essence of the Communion experience away from mysticism. A symbol TAKES THE PLACE OF/REPRESENTS something else. IT IS NOT THE THING IT REPRESENTS, or.. the IDEA of representation is abolished.
These are... two different universes.
Two different ways of looking at the world.
WE are living in a world which privileges symbolism.
In your last comment, you took the miracles of Jesus, and you made them into symbols.
Someone dead=spiritually dead.
This makes it a lot easier.
But.. what if Jesus REALLY raised Lazarus from the dead ?
And MORE IMPORTANTLY...
Can YOU believe this ?
Mysticism, for me, at least, is about RENOUNCING THE NEED FOR AN EXPLANATION.
RENOUNCING THE NEED TO HAVE THE WORLD EXPLAINED TO YOU.
(I have noticed that many people when they "get" an explanation of a phenomenon CEASE seeing it with wonder. It is as though the explanation subtley gives them DOMINION over something. As though "property" were involved. Curious.)
HAVING ACCESS TO MAGIC.
And, almost certainly, this was, in part, what Jesus was talking about when he told his followers that they would accede to the kingdom of God AS CHILDREN.
Paul did NOT sell Jesus. Paul himself was a mystic.
The church that he created WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE SAME had he not BEEN CONVERTED from the OPPOSITE position to that of Jesus.
I don't know WHEN the word "advertising" was invented. But... when we BELIEVE in something, we naturally want to tell other people our.. GOOD NEWS (!), and we want to SHARE our beliefs with others. And we want to.. convert them, for very complex reasons that have to do with our need to CONTINUALLY CONVINCE OURSELVES. (By the way, Jesus was doing this too, and it is INEVITABLE that we need to convince OURSELVES too, of what we believe in..) We talk about "selling" because in our idolatrous society, MONEY IS THE MEASURE FOR ALL THINGS. THERE IS A PRICE TAG ON EVERYTHING. (That's.. Sodom and Gomorrah, by the way...)
Also, Emmanuel.. the question is not WHAT HAPPENED, but.. WHAT YOU BELIEVE HAPPENED.
And.. there is NO truth. None. Which means that.. the problem of fiction and or lies becomes much much more difficult to formulate and understand.
In my opinion.
Debra,
I quote from your last email to me.
"Mysticism, for me, at least, is about RENOUNCING THE NEED FOR AN EXPLANATION.
RENOUNCING THE NEED TO HAVE THE WORLD EXPLAINED TO YOU.
(I have noticed that many people when they "get" an explanation of a phenomenon CEASE seeing it with wonder. It is as though the explanation subtley gives them DOMINION over something. As though "property" were involved. Curious.)"
A mystic is a person who attains insight into mysteries transcending ordinary human knowledge. He or she then has the ability to take things as they come, to help others without accepting anything in return, to live life in the fullest and appreciate and learn from the past, look to the future without great expectations, and live in the present. It can only become more clear once one attains that most precious gift.
Today we see what is going on in the Catholic Church and one can't help wondering if these people are not at all unlike the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time. Montaigne had said that money, power and sexual pleasures are the three destructive elements in life. It seems the Church has them all.
Emmanuel Karavousanos
Author and Speaker
We could go on and on about corruption in the Catholic Church.
There is no more corruption in the Catholic Church than there is anywhere else, and at any rate, what is interesting is NOT that corruption exists, because it is ALWAYS there, what is interesting is what suddenly makes it intolerable to the social body, or critically intolerable.
Saint Francis founded his spiritual movement during a moment of revolt against the corruption of the Catholic Church, and that was in the, uh... 1200's..
That should be telling us something.
I'm not talking about the Catholic Church as a current institution.
I am talking about some of the premices of Catholic.. doctrine, if you like.
The Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time are... ON WALL STREET, Emmanuel.
Because... Mammon is our CURRENT idolatry.
We do NOT believe in our traditional religions.
Not really.
How can you.. believe what Jesus said when you have taken out three life insurance policies, and you are checking the boxes waiting to collect your retirement pension ??
Na. Doesn't work...
The U.S. looks pretty bleak to me these days. (I am NOT living in the mother country...)
It looks like a land which has caved in to Mammon.
It looks like... the biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah, which I already mentioned.
And the Sodom and Gomorrah incident was NOT about homosexuality. It was about idolizing filthy lucre. Putting a price tag on everything. That's what I see going on in the U.S. these days. It's not evident to see the EXTENT to which money has grubbed our beautiful souls, but I assure you, it has.
Jesus definitely DID NOT take things as they come.
He was out there... converting, prophetizing, (oops, that's... propaganda/advertising for our jaded age...).
I'm not sure that a mystic sees experiences "transcending" ordinary human knowledge (quoting from you).
SINCE I AM A RATHER DEMOCRATIC PERSON...
I think that one can learn to become a mystic.
This kind of transmission is difficult, and fraught with peril, but then, anything worth anything at all has its risks, should we say...
You did NOT respond to what I said about transcendance/immanence, and magic..
Immanence is what remains within our minds Transcendence is rising above the universe and time. You seem to be in both realms in a healthy way because you ponder and know a great deal which is, of course to your credit. Both can be healthy and both can be harmful. Take a bit of each, mix it and you have a healthy mind. Know your hang-ups, your neuroses, your thoughts as they are occuring and you've got life beat. I always say that we, as individuals, are better than we think we are. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, that institution is as hypocritical as any. They can't control money, power or sexual urges, yet they tell everyone how to behave and how to live, what is right and what is truth. I like you better than the Catholic Church and I don't even know who or what you are. Warm regards.
Emmanuel
I take it you're signing off ?
Why don't you... BECOME a mystic, instead of reading/talking about it ?
It would be more satisfying for you, I think.
It would make you live MORE FULLY than how you are living now, probably.
Best of luck to you.
Cheers, Debra
Debra, it is interesting that you and I have not had others comment on this blog. That aside, I must say I enjoy our exchange. However, I see you jump to conclusions. You assume I am not a mystic. And you assume I am terminating our conversation. You may be interested to know, as I said early on, that a true mystic does not mention the fact that he or she is a mystic. You may also be interested in the book I wrote titled, "The Gift of Mystical Insight." You can look it up on Google or Yahoo. Getting back to the mystical, I must say that when one reaches that state, there is no certainty. One becomes Socratic-like in thinking. One loves life and loves people. One is enriched in body and soul. One cares to help others and asks nothing in return. One is forgiving and kind. The true mystic does not put others down or elevate the self. I think at this stage it is right that I tell you I had an experience, a sudden flash of insight. It was that insight that raised me from what I was to what I am. This insight does not make one better than anyone else, it simply makes the individual a better human being than what he or she previously was. I must say that it is clear that you are a woman who reads and is certainly well read. I admire the fact that you say what you feel. You also seem to be a good listener which I hope people are smart enough to see that in you.
You are an asset for all to listen to and learn from.
Yes, Emmanuel, I can see how I.. misinterpreted what you said earlier on in our conversation about being a mystic and not advertising it..
The fact remains that Jesus was a mystic (in some respects...) and he DID advertise it.
I think Jesus advertised his mysticism, if you like because he had an extraordinary degree of empathy with other human beings, and that he could not bear to see human suffering when he felt that he could do something to alleviate it.
At this point in time I can tell you that I have a number of identifications with Jesus. I think he was a remarkable man. I would have liked to know him. He played an extremely important... mystical role in my adolescent life, and in my mother, and grandmother's life. I think that I can say, truly.. I LOVE Jesus. And I don't care whether he was a man, or God, this is of no importance to me whatsoever.
If I am talking about mysticism, it is also because I feel at this time that our society is extremely divided about our.. mystical nature, which is an integral part of the human experience.
Our social body sets up situations where our natural talents will be employed or... discredited and blurred.
Western society has NOT favored our natural mystical dispositions for some time now ; indeed, our social body (and many individuals) feel very.. THREATENED by these spiritual gifts.
I think at this time that it is important to... break silence about mysticism.
I intervene on a self help forum with people who have been diagnosed with mental illness, and, as a qualified shrink, I do not feel, in many case, that these people are so much mentally ill as they are.. thwarted in their spiritual gifts.
That is why I feel that it is important for me to speak up on this issue. Perhaps it is NOT a good idea for me to speaking out on this issue on a public site like this one. But... I am not sure how many people COULD be reading us here, at this point... (How did you find this post, by the way ?)
On the subject of humility...
I am not big on humility.
I am NOW suspicious that promoting humility, as is done in almost all religious traditions... is an inevitable way to maintain social control from the inside.
Ensuring that... the social order is enforced.
Nobody sticks out.
I'm not saying that humility is ONLY that.
But I am, if you like, REACTING against the constant use of humility as an instrument of social control.
This is perhaps very childish of me. But... I am a child. A mystic is perhaps first and foremost.. a child.
I agree with most of what you say in your last comment about being curious, loving life, being forgiving.
I TRY to be this way.
It does not always come naturally to me, but then.. I think that we have false impressions of the "enlightened" in the first place. Like that.. ONCE one is enlightened, it is always easy afterwards.
As though... being saved was a once and for all phenomenon which is not continually recreated on a day to day basis.
I enjoy engaging with you too, Emmanuel.
You must know how VERY RARE it is to be able to engage with people in the way we are doing here, now.
Thank you very much for your compliments, Emmanuel. They brighten my day. It is nice of you to say these things.
Hi again Debra,
I am quoting you here:
"If I am talking about mysticism, it is also because I feel at this time that our society is extremely divided about our.. mystical nature, which is an integral part of the human experience."
Given mysticism is an unknown and cannot be understood or defined, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that our society is extremely divided about our mystical nature...
Debra, you also say the following: "I intervene on a self help forum with people who have been diagnosed with mental illness, and, as a qualified shrink, I do not feel, in many cases, that these people are so much mentally ill as they are.. thwarted in their spiritual gifts."
Virtually everyone has been thwarted in their spiritual gifts. Why? Nature gives it to us when we are born and we lose it as we grow and age. We are absorbed and enmeshed in learning and have very little or no chance of gaining the insight that awaits us. Sadly, the great majority of us fail to ever discover that gift which is hidden in the depths of our souls.
You say you are a "shrink", a psychiatrist I suppose. That is such a wonderful profession. Are you in the United States?
Debra, you ask how I discovered this site. I am laughing at myself because I can't remember how I found this site. If it wasn't for you, I would have been gone!
Emmanuel, I am American born, but have lived in France now for the past thirty years. Longer now than I lived in the U.S.
I received training to be a psychologist in France, and went through the French university system. But I also was an English literature major in college in the U.S. and speak fluent French. I am bilingual.
I also received training to be a psychoanalyst, and spent many years in psychoanalysis.
I have closed my practice now, and put the knowledge that my psychoanalytic experience gave me to use in other areas of my existence.
I have read my basic Freud, and read him well.
I do not agree with everything Freud says, but I agree with parts of his theory.
His theory was his own particular... construction to prop him up in a world which is increasingly confronted with desacralisation.
I do not think that we have mystic capacities at birth which are covered over with education.
I think that mysticism can be learned, which means that mysticism can be taught.
But not through mass education processes.
Not in a public way.
Mysticism can be learned and taught through a mentor situation.
This is WHY I am an educated person, Emmanuel. Because I looked for, and managed to find individual mentors.
You will NOT learn mysticism in public OR in private school.
But... our greatest thinkers/intellectuals/poets are people who received an individualized education.
Some time ago I read Theodore Roszak's "Where the Wasteland Ends". Roszak makes a case for the deleterious effects of scientific materialism on our mystical capacities.
I agree with him. The Renaissance signed the beginning of desacralisation in Western society. The rise of science as a way of EXPLAINING the world.
But man needs more than an explanation for the world in order to feel alive.
He needs more than trying to discover THE TRUTH about the historical Jesus. This will not satisfy him. And it is a lure. A destructive lure, in my book.
My last post here is "Desert Flower" about Waris Dire. I think that you might like it. (I'm advertising, right ?)
But in all fairness, Emmanuel... if you have written a book, you too have a desire to transmit something to someone about the ineffable, right ? ;-)
Debra,
You are certainly a very bright, intelligent human being and an interesting woman. I was in Verdun, France, from 1954 to 1955 when I served in the military. I enjoyed France and visited Paris on two occasions.
I agree with you that we need more than an explanation for the world in order to feel alive or the truth about Jesus and that it it is a lure. I admire a mind that searches and your mind fits that bill. You not only seem to have one great intellect, but you continually search. Knowing the psychological fields of study is also not the answer to understanding life in its fulness. Only the gift of insight can give us freedom from the tortures that sometimes accompany people throughout life. There are many paths to the freedom we seek as we all know and it may certainly be called mystical insight if we are "awakened." What a blessing it is...! Yes, I did author a book on that subject 3 years ago. An anthropologist who read the book said in part, "Fascinating! Seems to embody an entire life of reading, thinking, questioning." Above all else I love the study of how one can reach for and attain the mystical mind. I have spoken at a number of conferences and meetings on consciousness and probably will in the future. If you want to read an abstract I have prepared, I'd send it to you but I don't have your email address. If you want it, let me know.
Emmanuel Karavousanos
EKaravousa@aol.com
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