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Thursday, April 8, 2010

Externalitites... A wonderful example of how the conservation of energy plays out in a shrinking system

I highly recommend the following NYT article.

We are seeing this same effect in medicine as well


Thai said...


Debra said...

"Everyone and everything must pay its own way."
Geez, Thai, I hardly know what to make of you ?
It's becoming less and less possible to talk.
We don't live in the same universe.
Now.. THAT'S pretty amazing isn't it ?
On the other side of the Moebius strip you can read..
What happened to my post last year on Lufthansa airlines ? Remember ?
The one where I mentioned HOW PATHETIC it was listening to that.. POOR American woman ask the German steward HOW MUCH this, and that, cost ?
I am getting an overdose on American think.
It is really GETTING ME DOWN.
And "it" calls itself.. UNIVERSAL TOO...
Sorry if I sound unamerican or nationalist. (But I'm NOT nationalist. I don't BELIEVE in nationalism.)
But this "think" is DEFINITELY coming from the U.S.
"Sorry. Can't allow myself to THINK how MUCH this kind of think is bringing the world down."
That's all for now, folks.

Thai said...

Deb, you seem to continue to fail to recognize how money is energy (pone of those rose by any other names does not smell as sweet) and are therefore remain trapped in a particular boundary condition I know not how to help you out of.

Thai said...


... One of those rose by any other name does not smell as sweet issues again...

Debra said...

Thai... that is just YOUR BELIEF that money is energy.
Need I remind you that there are OTHERS, over there in the jungle WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU ANY MORE THAN I DO ??
The BIGGEST problem that I see with your theory is that it eliminates DIFFERENCE.
And once you have eliminated differences from your world, there is NO MORE MEANING, and NO MORE THOUGHT.
That's what i believe.
And I hardly think that I am alone in believing this.
On this blog, maybe.
But certainly NOT in the world.
Everytime anyone brings up a little snag, a little problem, you say... ZERO SUMS, or CONSERVATION OF ENERGY.
At a certain point, there is no sense in even trying to pinpoint difference or try to understand anything, because you will let loose that final couperet, zero sums.
You can't... ARGUE with theories like yours, Thai.
You can't say anything.
You have found.. "THE ANSWER".
Well, it's not my answer. For sure.
I'm saying to myself.. can you argue with mine ?
Maybe not.
But... AT LEAST when I say zero sums, it doesn't fall QUITE SO QUICKLY in the discussion. We can go a little further.
Maybe we are just two.. opposing forces, or something ?
Maybe there is no sense talking ?
In the long run, you MIGHT be surprised to discover how much this type of discussion resembles the snag that I had with an American woman about 5 years ago over the death penalty.
After... presenting the zero sums aspect of the problem, and saying how THE MONEY that was going to pay for the death penalty trials was going AWAY from neighborhood police patrolling, for example, she remained absolutely adamant in her.. evangelical Protestant way of insisting that every murderer had to EXPIATE.
BOTH of us, maybe, Thai, could fill her shoes.
I don't want to change my mind any more than YOU want to change yours.
If we could just talk about FOOD (AND NOT AMERICAN FOOD) maybe we could see eye to eye, and have a good time...

Thai said...

Deb, you may not realize it but you just restated Godel's incompleteness theorem. ;-)

Thai said...

But you have a problem.

Just like the issue of language, where words along can lead to physical action, money can most definitely lead to the use of energy.

How it goes from "non-energy" to communicate with energy, even with lots of "differences" between the two steps, is an interesting thought problem. And if money can consume energy, even through a complex communication chain, then at some level they are one and the same.

Thai said...

So yes, humans brains and language are designed to see differences.

The differences are really there, but then again differences are a funny problem. ;-)

Debra said...

Where the snag appears is...
"at some level they are one and the same".
Well, Thai...
Maybe we should serve you up your shit for dinner, since at SOME level, what goes in and what comes out IS THE SAME ?
Those differences would seem PRETTY IMPORTANT TO YOU if what came out the other end was on your plate...

Dr John said...

Debra, I have only been posting a very short time and I am grateful for the invitation both you and Thai offered up to me. I must make an observation however. In that short period it seems that the majority of your posts do contain "shouting" caps and you take a very adversarial position on things. Thai and Dink seem to be very tolerant of this and even tempered. This is not just about disagreement between people but rather the tone that seems to be inflected from your posts. You seem to be filled with nothing but righteous indignation. I think some of your posts have merit often but this is at times lost in the bile. Please do not go off on me. Dink said if this is not fun he would move on. Don't you think there is some truth to that? Why so angry?

Debra said...

But Doctor John...
Why are capital letters shouting ?
Why have we come up with this convention ?
Are you hearing me shouting in your ear ?
As tolerant as you think you are ?
On my loony forum where people have been diagnosed with psychiatric labels, and are thus hypersensitive, I behave the same way, and people do not get all huffy about it. (Not any more...)
My DIAGNOSIS ?? That those same people who you called sad sacks a few posts ago ARE MORE OPEN to hearing stuff than the people who are pulling their weight, bringing home meat and potatoes on the table. Logical. Because they are more open than those people. The war of the classes is ever before us.
I am tired of hearing the same old contented purring about how rational we are/should be, and how well mannered, etc etc, we need to be.
I did NOT insult Thai in that last comment, not in MY book at least. I did not call HIM a shit.
I am an extremist, if you like.
Am I feeling self righteous on this blog ? Maybe. But if I am, it's because I am feeling disqualified.
And you're right, I'm getting more and more defensive on this blog. IN MY BOOK, my talents, my gifts (literary ones...) have been disqualified from day one. Because they don't make money.
We do not have the same attitudes about... LIFE, LANGUAGE, science, etc.
I am beginning to feel that we can NOT dialogue.
You're right. I'm feeling this more and more often, and that's really too bad for all of us. It's making things worse.
But then.. the people on my forum castigate themselves saying that THEY are not open to dialogue. I see little indication around me in the world that ANYBODY is open to dialogue, Doctor John. People are going through the motions, and congratulating themselves. That means me. But that means.. YOU too.
But at least I'm engaging with what's in front of me.
It is difficult for me to engage with you on this blog when I don't have scientific training.
And I do not feel up to doing a self education gig in scientific "training" to engage with you. (And Wiki does not help me. Wiki is words on paper. Words about. I no longer believe in abstraction for abstraction's sake.)
So I try to engage from where I'm at. Drawing parallels.
Is this a man/woman thing ?
I already said I have nothing against an erector set mentality, and I mean it.
But I think that YOU are congratulating yourselves on how open, etc you are to understanding new things.
And I don't see that there is anything to be congratulating yourselves for.
We rarely see just where WE as individuals are congratulating ourselves (and is this such a BAD thing, we might ask ? It isn't, except when it gets in the way of the mythical dialogue...)
Now... I suppose we can stay in our corners, and everybody can do his/her thing.
That's what our societies have come to be, everybody in his/her own corner, doing their own things. I can do that. Write my posts, and you write yours, and we leave each other alone.
Maybe that's the best way to handle this problem, at this point.
But whether we like it or not... EXTREMISM is coming back to stay.
We have been keeping the lid on for too long.
It shows in our particularly DEAD, REASONABLE, DUSTY language.
But... this is lifting. For better or for worse.
We'll see.
One of the things that I told my friends here is that... as there is less and less physical violence in our societies over a long period of time, we are not happy about it. We are as unsatisfied as ever.
We just zero in on what's LEFT.
American society, from my vantage point, has become a society of zero tolerance ( YOU SAID THIS YOURSELF DOCTOR JOHN) and this is how it shows up. In our hypersensitivity, and our desire to domesticate ourselves to death.
I don't WANT to be domesticated to death...
And you ?

Debra said...

One last thing.
The dynamics of the blog have changed since two new GUYS showed up. More erector set thinking. (Not all guys think like this, predominantly... but there is a lot of it with guys, I have noticed.)
And it makes me more defensive than ever...

Debra said...

Thai, I apologize if you feel offended by that last comment. I did not intend to offend you.
It was too good to pass up, and it FIT.
That was the beauty of it...
Call it my... purple, or acid yellow prose, if you like.

Dr John said...

I suppose Debra you have a different vantage point but I look around and I see there is a lack of tolerance around the globe. There are lots of problems in the US but people still come here for the same reasons the country was founded. Tolerance and freedom. I think we are more sensitive than ever about this issue and we end up going to our corners and getting in shouting matches about it. In many ways however I think because of the exchange of information that occurs as it does now in a way the past generation could not have dreamed of we have far more freedom. Struggle is the human condition however. I look at images from around the world. I think there are much better places to get upset over. If you think American society has "zero" tolerance you should take a trip to Saudi Arabia or Iran and express your views. That kind of hyperbole is silly. I never said we have zero tolerance I just said we should have more. My idea of tolerance is not just about the words we speak. You express that you have lots of tolerance but it also seems to come with huge expectations of what others must do for you and everyone else. This is not tolerance.It is giving lip service to it. Leaving me alone to live as I choose in my attempts to pursuit my own life as long as I harm no other is "tolerance" in my book. I do not know what being domesticated to death means but whatever it is I am doing my best to choose my own path within the set of circumstances I find myself in. That is all any of us can do. Do not be so defensive there is no cause for this even if you do not agree. Maybe you are correct and everyone else is wrong. I am sure you find day to day however people are more likely to absorb new ideas dependent on the context of which they are given.

Dink said...

"Why are capital letters shouting ?"

You know this. Why would you use them if you didn't realize this?

"I am tired of hearing the same old contented purring about how rational we are/should be, and how well mannered, etc etc, we need to be....Am I feeling self righteous on this blog ? Maybe."

You think us pigs (and yourself a prophet). Which reminds me of an old saying "Don't bother to teach pigs to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pigs". Have you looked around for blogs with readers that share your views? It may increase your happiness.

"my gifts (literary ones...) have been disqualified from day one. Because they don't make money."

Because obviously it impossible that sensitive, intelligent people could disagree you since you are always right. It must be that they are materialistic, conformist pigs. Please, Deb, these pigs won't sing and they're getting bad-tempered. There are surely lots of e-choirs more to your liking.

Debra said...

OK dink.
I'll shut up here.
I won't bother writing on your posts, or on anybody else's posts either.
But I WOULD like to write my own posts.
And you can come visit if you want.
And if you don't want, that's fine too.
Will that make you happy ?
Truce ?

Dr John said...

"Don't bother to teach pigs to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pigs". quote of the week for sure. I wish you lived near me Dink. I would buy the next two rounds for sure. Deb I really do not see how not posting helps get you positions across. I do not get the feeling anyone wants that. I do not. I am just asking you to take it down a notch. This is not personal. I do not know you well enough to devalue you. Besides. You invited me and for that I am very grateful.

Thai said...

Deb, what's up? As my boys say "chill"

You've been quite rude with a number of comments of late- a lot of connecting me to excrement.

The boys like to play with erector sets sometimes. There is no attempt to exclude you and it is not fair to let us not play periodically.

Please do not draw a line that does not need drawing.

Post away whatever you like

Be well

Debra said...

I'm sorry Thai.
I get frustrated at not being able to understand and participate, I guess...

Dink said...

I was pretty ticked off Deb and probably would've accepted your apartheid offer. But its actually led me to wander off in thought so here it goes:

There, to broad (mustn't make Freud's mistake and take my issues and apply them to all humanity ;) ).

I seem to have a spectrum with affection at one end and authority at the other.

I like to have people of good will to have free will and express themselves however they see fit. No limits; why should there be if there is good will towards all. Full affection.

If I start to sense ill will I'll try to give the benefit of the doubt that it was unintentional/accidental. Perhaps the situation can be remedied with a teasing nudge to subtly make them aware of their oversight while still letting them know there is affection. Often the term "dude" is used.

If the hint isn't taken we move on to what Thai termed "the British constable". Essentially, you're a good lad making some poor choices and you need to correct your behavior. 50/50 affection to authority ratio?

If the warning isn't taken I assume intentional ill will. There is a brand of personality out that takes kindness for weakness so the above kindnesses have been misinterpreted. They are often shocked by how cold and direct I become in this stage; they assumed "that I didn't have it in me". It is most certainly in me, but I luckily don't have to use it that often. Yoyomo disregarded it; I'm not sure what you're going to do.

Final stage is splitsville. No affection, all authority. I've heard that hot tempers rise and fall quickly. I suppose this means slow tempers fall slowly so if your desire is to remain do understand that I'm wary.

So anyway, enough about me and you. This affection/authority spectrum is interesting to me and I may post on it later this weekend.

Thai said...

Dink, its wonderful and makes absolute sense. FWIW- I too was not happy being accused of sodomizing flies.

I aspire to share at least the "appearance" of wider boundaries you emit. Alas it has never been in my nature to possess this gift as much as I wish otherwise.

As I'm sure you have surmised after all this time, I'm more of the small tight boundary but wider middle ground and truly wide frontier profile.

I'd love to read a post

Debra said...

That comment was on Disaster Porn and it had nothing to do with you.
Let's be wary of overinterpreting here.
I have said that I do not appreciate people not understanding why I COULD be upset about something.
I have said that I will stay in my corner.
I prefer it works this way.
If you want to come visit and comment, fine.
But I will not come over.

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