Curiosity Over Pride (FYI: To comment, send an e-mail to

Sunday, December 13, 2009


Hints of things to come.

By the way, I do not agree at all with his comment "there is nothing else like that in physics and certainly not in human experience...".

I will let you decide for yourself.

But as you think on this, and in particular if it has a relationship to cooperation, I thought you might also be interested to learn that the world wide web, a scale free network, also displays Bose-Einstein condensation properties.

In fact, many things display this property.

And I mean many. ;-)


Thai said...


Dink said...

Waves at rest...hmmmm...

Give me the examples that you're considering as the web one, um, eludes me ;)

BTW, I suspect that this somehow stems from a holiday work gathering where you and the ex-SETI guy got into an intellectual pissing match. You had him pinned and he unleashed an abstract concept (one that included the name Einstein to add the additional kick to the throat). Sounds like an ambush he had ready for some time...

I tell ya, Thai, these physicists are sketchy companions and will go String Theory on your #@@ at the slightest provocation. Take care out there!

Debra said...

On the basis of this explanation, I would say that it is extremely logical that matter... KNOWS the existence of this phenomenon.
And that it is not really all that strange to "us", to think about it, in contrast to what your scientist SEEMS to think...
But.. why give this post the title "universality" ?
Aren't you falling into that old 19th century trap, Thai ? The one that.. Freud fell into ?
The phenomenon outlined here describes the relation/tension between individual/group identity.
Is this a universal tension ?

Thai said...

No pissing match- it would be no contest. I am competitive but not a fool... Oddly I have been at work parties this weekend, but not with him.

... I actually found this on my own after reading about fractals and renormalization and the cooperative message was compelling.

As I understand renormalization, the basic principle is that the same laws of physics apply at all scales of the system.

All parts of the system act as one and form a Bose-Einstein condensate.

I thought this fascinating as it seems to show nature in cooperation at all scales.

Thai said...

It is my hypothesis that certain social structures with a high degree of cooperation/agreement are basically Bose-Einstein structures.

Thai said...

All highly cooperative/effective teams (say good marriages, etc...) are Bose-Einstein structures.

Thai said...

Think religion in its purist sense

Thai said...

Think about it. Are we individual quanta, or are we part of a collective wave.

Or do we straddle the two states in a very fragile way?

if you watch a slightly longer version of the same NOVA program, in the ultimate form of irony, you kind of get the sense that the teams that looked for the Bose-Einstein condensate were in fact Bose-Einstein condensates themselves.

What about stories of people who say they were "brainwashed" as they became part of cults, etc... like Patty Hearst?

Think terrorists, heroic teams, etc...

Think about all our conversations on consciousness- e.g. a cooperative, emergent property which forms from the sub parts of the system itself.

In fact, it appears others have had the same thoughts.

... I wonder if we will be able to discover the "truth"?

Thai said...

There is a bunch of this stuff out there if you look for it.

Thai said...

More stuff.

This guy actually seems to know a lot on this stuff so I have asked him a few questions.

I let you know what I find.

Thai said...

One last thought.

Consider Googling Bose (as in Bose-Einstein), Bosons and "the god particle".

Dink, I am getting the following book. I will let you know.

Dink said...

Here's a nice little history of monsters and superorganisms . The nod to Leibniz tickles me, of course ;)

"A tool nature keeps on discovering to be handy!" (paraphrasing something I liked in the article). Using chemistry as a model, carbon is the hub in the ultimate network. Very handy, indeed.

Okay, now off to dive into the rabbit holes that you provided. If I were religious I'd be praying for protection....

Dink said...

Let me know how Sync turns out. I noticed "A Stroke of Insight" and "Guns, Germs, and Steel" linked to it. We're closing in on the Matrix.....

Singularities. JFC. I'm rereading a Vernor Vinge book that won a Hugo in the 90s . He likes singularities. He's killing me.

Never, never, never give up (Churchill)

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Debra said...

Thai, I question precisely the Platonic and neoplatonic construct that basically infuses our perception AS IT INFUSES OUR LANGUAGE.
In terms of consciousness...
what kind of thinking is going on when I play the piano ? What kind of consciousness is involved ?
This is the consciousness I am interested in.

Naughty boy, Thai with your Batman fantasies.
That wasn't Batman's spanking. Or if it was, it wasn't MY Batman's spanking.

Debra said...

OUUUUUUH, it's Halloween again and we have a dressed up person here..
WHO could it be ??
I'm salivating. I love a mystery.

Debra said...

I think we should reinvite yoyo on this blog if he will come.
He is an interesting contributor.
Plus it really is unfair to squat Hell's blog to talk about Islamic finance.
On the other hand.. Hell is a little complacent these days on the off topic question.
He is getting laxist (or lazy, whichever you prefer).

Thai said...

Dink, I LOVED (and I mean LOVED) your connectivity article.

It is EXACTLY the way I think.

Indeed, I quote the following passage ;

"Top-down structures cannot be truly scale-free, exactly because they have a top. It is impossible to force an emergent pattern, it must in fact emerge.

Scale-free systems must evolve from the bottom-up. From an initial set of conditions and using some simple rules, they feed back on themselves over and over and over again, spiraling outwards and upwards. The natural world is built in layers and we are built in layers, and we organize ourselves in layers. But these are not layers of command-and-control, they are layers of emergent complexity. Like life itself, truly scale-free systems cannot be designed, they must be evolved."

Personal responsibility


Thai said...

By the way, notice how they created a Bose-Einstein condensate by dropping the temperature.

It had nothing to do with the individual atoms that created the condensate, it was something completely external to the system (in this case temperature) that formed the condensate.

Now think about things like teams, why do indidivuals act like a collective for a team.

It always has to do with issues outside the system itself.

Teams are created through some kind of common purpose/common goal and are created to address some kind of external factor.

Dink said...

" we have a dressed up person here..
WHO could it be ??"

Dunno. I think spammers can program "spiders" to go search the web for blogs with key words. Its the first time we've been targeted.

"I think we should reinvite yoyo on this blog if he will come."

Ay carumba!
1)No, he doesn't play nice with Thai or me.
2)You really are pissed off at me! I believe your religion demands you forgive me since its closing in on Saturnalia ;)

"Top-down structures cannot be truly scale-free, exactly because they have a top"

I'm muttering about mulling over "preferred attachment" hubs and whatnot. One point in the scale-free thing thats weighing on me is why networks have to continually be growing. It seems if a robust enough structure evolved it could stay in place with minor modifications. Genetics, democracy, etc. I dunno. A lot of food for thought and my mind is gorged; to the vomitorium! ;)

Well Thai, between you with scale-free networks and Vinge with singularity transcendance I'm going to have to let Bose-Einstein simmer for a while. I mean, if a waving isn't moving it isn't a wave....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Thai said...

I do like the idea of singularity transcendence ;-)

Thai said...

You have to admit this is a little eerily deja vu ;-)

Debra said...

Geez you guys, the sound of construction is deafening...

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