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Wednesday, June 3, 2009

The Farmers' Market and You

Drum roll...
You guys asked for it, and you're getting it.
Although I'm really intimidated because y'all just MAY have built up some unrealistic expectations about me.
Some profile things about me before I get down and into this post.
I've lived in France for 30 years now. I am an emigrant, and NOT an expatriate... There is a difference in my eyes, and surely in the govt's eyes too, while we're at it.
It has taken me mucho years to understand WHY I left the mother country, but I've got some pretty clear ideas about the issue, for the time being.
One of the things that I immediately fell in love with in France was the farmers' markets.
There is an enormous one in the Rue de Buci, in the Latin quarter in Paris, the Latin quarter where there is 24 hour activity, where the lights never go out, the beautiful, wild Latin Quarter that I always go back to whenever I go to Paris.
There is an enormous farmers' market on the hills of Lyon, at La Croix Rousse, where at this time of year, it stretches out for maybe a mile, down an entire street, and on a Saturday/Sunday morning you can leisurely shop at small, individual producers and find at least 4 or 5 different kinds of strawberries, all from France (at this time of year...). The teeny tiny ones that EXPLODE into your mouth, they have THAT MUCH FLAVOR.
The farmers' markets are what will stop France from tripping gaily down the path that the U.S. has taken.
3 : 00 AM : while Hell is padding around in his slippers, (I cheated, the time difference is no good on this one...), the revendeurs (people who go to a big market to buy their produce in the aim of reselling it on a smaller market with a profit) are already stirring and have hit the big Grenoble market to get their produce.
5 -6 :00 AM : I THINK that it's about this time that everybody starts arriving at my local farmers' market that sets up twice a week. They all have regular spots, and they pay a monthly fee to the local municipality for electricity, and their spot. Some of them are revendeurs. Some are small local producers who have been on the market for years. They gather around the local pizza guy where everybody hangs out. When it's hot, people down little plastic cups of white wine. When it's cold, coffee is more appreciated. Lots of white wine gets handed out.
Facing the pizza guy is a man who shows up on the market pretty regularly, but not all the time. He sells goat's milk cheese. Goats do NOT produce milk all the time, so for part of the year, he holes up in the mountains, and takes care of his goats. When the new ones arrive, he doesn't have time to come to the market...
I buy my meat from a woman who will have a short life. She has animals : cows, sheep, pigs ; she has an arrangement with her neighbors to slaughter THEIR animals, and they will slaughter hers. She cuts it all up, and manages to hit the farmers' markets to sell it too. Next week she has invited her clientele to her biannual transhumance : it is time to take the ewes and the newborn lambs up to pasture for the summer. She will bring them back down at the end of the summer...
12 : 30. Everybody breaks camp. The market is over. The municipality crew steps in to clean up.

One or two comments : doing business on the farmers' market is NOT like doing business at the supermarket. For one thing, most producers don't have those fancy credit card thingees, and they don't have fancy cash registers either. They will occasionally tell you to forget the 5 or 10 cents that you don't have on you, or to give it to them later. They will also occasionally give you FREE produce when they like you. (And many of them like ME...)
Lots of business gets done on the farmers' market. Lots of REAL business....
Maybe that's what we're missing in the States these days ?


SS said...

@ Debra

"They will also occasionally give you FREE produce when they like you. (And many of them like ME...)"

Sounds like our Debra may be getting fat!

Vive la France!


SS said...

P.S. Any squirrels visiting the market?


Thai said...

Does sound like heaven. We have such a lousy farmer's markets here in Bethesda.

Good luck on your piano performance this weekend. Any chance you can tape it and let us all hear? I am pretty sure Dink can load an .mp3 file to the blog.

Cottonbloggin said...


Ah... French market-- How I miss thee.

But, things have changed since last you lived here Deb. PART OF America really is moving in a new direction, and it's a direction I can wholeheartedly endorse. I remember reading an article in the NYTimes a few months back which describes it better than I could:


Here in the lame part of NY (the rust belt part), there's a man who wants to buy the land out from under 27 boarded up houses so that he can turn the land into an inner city organic farm. I can't find the link to that one, but... I do remember a similar story called:


However... These are still exceptions of the US "food" policy / thinking in America. I suggest this GREAT read from (probably) the most informed American on the subject-- Michael Pollan. Be forewarned, it's LONG though very much worth the time it takes to read it.

And... Deb? Sorry to say but there's no french market in the wide world of france who's strawberries can compare with the mouthwateringly delicious berries I've got growing in my garden right now (no romanesco broccoli however, didn't think of it-- but next year, as a "conversation crop"? Absolutely!!!)

Debra said...

Hugs and kisses, Cotton, I love you...
I will TRY to read your links. Promise.
For the piano performance, no go,unfortunately.
My husband and I are doing a poetry reading (his poetry) and the music accompanies it. The whole thing will last around 1 1/2 to two hours. A little long for an mp3, I think.
And I'm an ephemeral girl at heart.

Thai said...

CB, I loved the Beets in the hood article (guilty I was eating a double cheeseburger while I read it).

It kind of reminded me of a CSA known as Westhaven Farms that my mom has belonged to for years in Ithaca New York.

In fact, the CSA actually supplies her entire co housing community's common house with fresh organic produce and the people eat really really well for very little money- to be fair they are all vegetarian so it is pretty easy to save money when you don't eat meat).

I have always been amazed at the quality of their produce ever time I visit- much better than the stuff we get at our local Whole Foods, which is about the best we can get in my town.

As I think on it, the CSA also sell's their surplus produce at a local Ithaca farmer's market, that does not sound nearly as good as the one's Deb has, but is really quite impressive for a town of 15,000- Ithaca is a great place to live.

Dink said...


Good job posting, even if it did make me furiously jealous!

And nice links, Cotton and Thai. When I was younger I thought living in a small town/village would be a living hell due to boredom. And I might possibly still feel that way if it weren't for television with 600 stations and the internet. Now I could see living in a small town for ~9 or 10 months of the year; enjoying the comraderie of a small village with the virtual escape to the "big city" when I felt like it. Then actual escape the other 2 or 3 months.

Speaking of which, I'm going camping to central WA this weekend (recherchez vous "Wenatchee", Deb?). Lots of rivers and fertile soil. Not a lot of bookstores (hence the internet caveat mentioned above). This means you have many days to compile your list, Yoyomo ;)

Debra said...

Wow, you guys, check out that article in the NYT by Michael Pollen ; it is one of best reads I have seen in a long time, but only for the really interested and PATIENT as it is 9 pages long, chockfull of really important ideas and insights about our relationship to our food.
Reminder : our technology shapes our minds. And our ideas are everywhere in our technology...
And... everything hangs together. If you want reform one place, you have to modify EVERYTHING.
But there are steps you can take, and areas that you can start with that REALLY set the ball rolling.
And that is why dealing with the BANKS is not the way to go these days.
We need to start with our relationship to FOOD.
And we probably really need to, not break up the banks, but break up the industrial farms to get back to a small farm system.
That is called... TRUST BUSTING. Getting the multinationals out of our farmland. Giving the land back to individuals, and educating them, through working on the land, in discipline, effort, so that they can rediscover just what WORK really is...

Dink said...

"If you want reform one place, you have to modify EVERYTHING.

I come to this maddening conclusion about 15 times a day. The ripple of consequences to just about any action.....its exhausting.

It would be an interesting societal experiment to have every 18 yr old have to enlist in some agricultural duty. It would also be interesting to have them go to a nursing home for a month to see what the effects of decades of health neglect will bring.

Thai said...

Dink- nursing homes won't show you health neglect. Nursing homes are where we are ALL headed.

Health neglect happens at a much earlier age than nursing homes. Health neglect gets you "rehab" which is a fancy way for saying "younger person nursing home".

I know you know this already, but just in case I am misunderstanding you, we will NEVER escape infirmity nor death.

Debra said...

Thai, you keep that opinion (about nursing homes...) TO YOURSELF.
I am seriously entertaining the idea of caring for my now ageing mother in law AT HOME (mine) or arranging for her to have care in her own home for as long as possible.
And I DON'T want to end up in an industrial pig farm nursing home either. Over my DEAD BODY first. (And I am NOT saving MUCHO bucks to be able to afford the equivalent of those Carribean hotelsties that Hell showed us on his blog a while ago. And I DO NOT WANT my children to have to pay through their nose in order to send me to one of those places either.)
I will NOT escape ageing, (possible) infirmity, nor death, but I have EVERY intention of escaping the nursing home.
Didn't you get Harry Potter's message ?
You know, when Dumbledore insists that Voldermort's greatest failing is his INCAPACITY to understand that there are fates worse than death ?
Yep, there sure are fates worse than death.
But our ridiculously pusillanimous culture has just not ACCEPTED this yet...

yoyomo said...

Oh Dink dearie, I do so hate to spoil your weekend but for a while now I have been meaning to bring up the USS Liberty "incident" (since it happened before you were born and you've probably never heard anything about it) but since there are new developments in the case, now is as good a time as any to include it in the discussion. Read this article along with my two comments to Debra (on the prior thread) on the rapidly escalating burden/danger of Israel to the US and when you get back we can begin the discussion.

If you don't have time to read it (15~20min) before you leave, try to download it and take it with you. It will make for a mindblowing discussion with your buddies while you sit around the campfire at night.

If you have time, you might want to look at this analysis of the futility of Israel without the massive backing of the US & EU which he expects to progressively wane as the west loses ground to the east. Some excerpts:

" Even now the independence of the Israeli judiciary is compromised, secularism is losing ground, xenophobia is rampant, and, still and always, the Palestinian minority is reduced to second-class citizenship. "

"Israel’s leaders are at a crossroads: either they stick to their guns and are forced into a reconfigured geopolitical reality they cannot outwit or overmaster, or they decide of their own accord to temper their hubris and rein in their propensity to vengeance. What should they choose at a moment when Israeli society is facing a decline in Jewish immigration, a rise in Jewish and Israeli emigration, and an upturn in draft dodging (to say nothing of how this disenchantment may be affecting the steep rate of assimilation and intermarriage in the diaspora)?"

"Betting a tiny country’s security and survival on a momentary regional head start in state-of-the-art warheads, aircraft, missiles, unmanned drones, cluster bombs, and cyber weapons is, again, delusional."

"The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only at dusk for political actors as well as philosophers. Israel’s leaders, reflecting more critically on Herzl’s belief in the need for an imperial patron, must grasp the implications of the incipient decline of the American empire for Israel’s future. Paradoxically the waning of Washington’s hegemony in the Greater Middle East is likely to chasten Israel’s pride and give enlightened and cosmopolitan Zionism a new if difficult lease on life. But insofar as the U.S. fights its decline tooth and nail, Israel’s power elite is also more likely to remain implacable, at all risks and hazards for their own country and the diaspora."

SS said...

@ All

The SS on Mish today is not me.

@ Yoyomo

Thanks for the link on the Liberty. I would hope everyone on the blog knows about this horrible incident but it is possible, given how it has been hushed, that they don't. Unfortunately your ability to publicize the real problem posed by Israeli projection of state power is compromised by your zeal, in focusing on the religious beliefs of the practitioners of this power and not on their actions. President Obama has made clear in Cairo and at Auschwitz America's and the West's enduring debt to the Jewish people for our actions toward them as well as our commitment to justice for the Palestinians. He will have a tough row to how to get there. Why don't you get a hold of yourself and give him all the help you can muster.


yoyomo said...

"...Obama has made clear in Cairo and at Auschwitz America's and the West's enduring debt to the Jewish people for our actions toward them..."

That is the crux of the problem, the west is trying to pay for its sins with other people's lives, land and destiny. The west can't wash Jewish blood off its hands with Palestinian blood,it will NEVER work. Not only is it wrong and immoral, it will put the west (the US really, as Europe is in the process of wiggling out of the conflict; most the support Israel gets from Europe now is the result of US pressure and the US's ability to bully the world on behalf of Israel is rapidly dissipating - going forward Israel will be a burden solely of the US) on a path of never-ending conflict with a huge part of the world that don't know the meaning of the word quit. Economically, that part of the world is also becoming more important and having bad relations with them will become more expensive with time especially if they all decide to ally with China.

I don't know how big a debt you feel toward the Jews but they are far from history's only victim. How many trillions are you willing to pay to Iraq as reperations for the destruction the US caused. If not, I don't see any special obligation toward the Jews for what happened in Europe. There is also the not-so-small matter of zionist lobbying during the 30's straight through the war to prevent Jewish immigration to anywhere other than Palestine.

Google "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all..." and see how many hits you get.

Let the zionists pay for those killed that could have been saved, I'm not the one who kept them trapped in Germany and Poland. Hitler was trying to expel the Jews before he started killing them but no one would take them because the World Zionist Organization wouldn't allow it. If they couldn't reach Palestine, then their deaths were considered good PR for the zionist cause. As Madeline Albright said of all the dead Iraqi children (500-600K) "It's hard, but we think the price, it's worth it".

yoyomo said...

"...focusing on the religious beliefs of the practitioners of this power and not on their actions."

I'm going to apologize pre-emptivly for the offense I am going to cause but that is a dumb-ass statement; that is like looking at the Third Reich without understanding nazi ideology. Why the hell do you think they're doing what they're doing; zionist ideology is 100% rooted in talmudic rabbinical Judeaism. Even atheist zionists use the talmud to justify what they do; if not to you personally, then certainly amongst themselves.

How long is the US expected to pay Israel's neighbors yearly bribes in the billions to endure the racist apartheid policies of the zionist extremists in Israel; there are Jews in Israel who would be willing to abandon zionism (beyond the anti-zionist Jews that exist now) if the international community would underwrite the transition. It would be a lot cheaper than this constant state of war and I also resent bitterly that my taxes are being spent killing people on behalf of a terminal ideology.

South Africa accepted uniform citizenship; sooner or later, Israel will be forced to do the same. As soon as the US can no longer afford to pay Egypt etc. to maintain relations with Israel, those govts will collapse and we will be back to square one because the new regimes will not honor discredited treaties that Israel never held up its end on.

Thai said...

SS, I just read the Mish post. Thanks for the clarification as I would have wondered.

I totally agree with Mish.

yoyomo said...

This may not be as colorful as Thai's Dad's heads-on-pikes retelling but at least it's on video.

I wonder if Thai will pass on this little piece of history to his kids along with their grand-dad's treasure trove of memories.

SS said...

@ anti Zionist person

Yoyo you are becoming so obsessed as to lose your sense of personhood. Secondly your defense of Hitler's atrocities, "Hitler was trying to expel the Jews before he started killing them but no one would take them because the World Zionist Organization wouldn't allow it." is completely disgusting. So if he couldn't expel 6 million German citizens that he didn't like and take all their assets, well how can he be blamed.

Finally read Nietzsche, one of the greatest philosophers of all time and a German, on German anti-semitism. He describes your case perfectly: German problems with the digestive tract, lack of cosmopolitism and inability to assimilate anything unfamiliar. He had mostly disdain for the Germans and especially on this point. Anti-semitism was around in the 19th century and apparently you inherited it. I can only feel sorry for you. You completely ignored Obama's other point on the validity of palestinian aspirations to indulge in your anti zionist rant. I don't call it anti-semitism only because Arabs are semites too. I feel sorry for you. You have a fine mind but it is becoming unhinged with hatred. Hatred is not how one fights back successfully against wrong doing. Read Nietzsche, the warrior goes to battle with joy in his heart. That's it for me on this subject. See a good Doctor you remain a friend of the blog, albeit a very sick one.


SS said...


Getting back to a somewhat less passionate subject, food, Socialists are not gourmand. We see food escapism as a bourgeois indulgence as Marx said of religion "an opium of the people," that we do not indulge in until after the revolution. Socialists are puritans. No free sex, no gourmandise, no personal wealth in favor of the nirvana which is post-revolutionary society. Since with all you laggards out there - - your days are numbered - - this post-revolutionary society may be a little slow in coming we do indulge in food, wine and yes sex on socialist holidays: birthdays of Castro, Lenin and Theodore Herschel.

All the best.

Liberte, egalite, fraternite


Debra said...

Socialism is definitely NOT for me.
The mention of the word "puritanism" sends me into a tizzy.
SS, I think that you are being somewhat harsh and unfair with Yoyo, although, Yoyo, as the author of this post, I would appreciate it if you did not "contaminate" my FOOD issues with this highly explosive other one that regularly sends people into orbit.
SS, for me at least, it is a FACT that the state of Israel has grounded its existence on the Shoah. And that Judaism has traded the Babylonian exile for the Shoah as a melancholic origin to mobilize its members of the faith, and to keep a stranglehold over the entire Western world.
I do not think that this perception is antisemitism, especially as, in the long run, what will ultimately be perceived -- rightfully or wrongfully -- as manipulation is very likely to get Israel wiped off the map, the way that the Jewish state has been wiped off the map in several similar incidents during its past.
Is it antisemitism to bring these uncomfortable observations to people's attention ? I am baffled.
The painful truth is also that the last survivors of WW2 are dying now. There will no longer be any eyewitnesses around to tell the stories, and this INEVITABLE fact will INEVITABLY change the way we see WW2.
And we, and our children, ALREADY do not have the same perception of WW2 as the survivors.
liberté, égalité, fraternité ?
Of the three, SS, there is only ONE that I feel very strongly about.
That's the FIRST ONE.

SS said...

@ Debra,

but egalite and fraternite are the uniquely French ones, are they not? Anyway re.: puritanism you can join us on the birthday celebrations n'est-ce pas?


yoyomo said...

"...well how can he be blamed."

You couldn't be more OFF BASE, I made NO excuse for Hitler or what he did (don't PUT WORDS in my mouth). He killed who he did, there are no excuses to be made for that but if someone is trapped in a pit with a man-eating tiger and some tries to lower a ladder to help him escape but you stop him from being rescued then you are also a murderer even if it was the tiger that physically caused the death.

Hitler was bent on getting rid of the Jews in one of two ways; expulsion or extermination and the zionists knew it and they actively blocked the expulsion route. That in no way diminishes Hitler's crime but I challenge you to demonstrate rationally how HIS guilt in any way mitigates the culpability of those who actively prevented the ladder from being lowered into the pit.

The Jews who were in danger had their chance to escape Hitler's death camps snatched from them by the zionists. If you were waiting to be murdered, would you not ALSO blame those who blocked your path and stopped you from escaping the man coming to kill you?

AGAIN, I strongly R-E-S-E-N-T you accusing me of something I did NOT say. That you interpreted what I said that way reflects your opinion of me, it does not reflect either what I said or what I meant. I don't need (nor do I want) to defend Hitler in order to condemn zionism, its bigotry is inherent in its own internal dynamics.

My original point stands on its own; before the Jews were murdered by Hitler, there was a chance for them to be saved and the zionists are the ones guilty of blocking the escape route. There were plenty of people trying to lower the ladder into the pit but they were prevented from doing so by murderers.

Dink said...

"as the author of this post, I would appreciate it if you did not "contaminate" my FOOD issues..."

I sure Hell would be laughing his ass off at that comment ;)


You want to bring injustice to light and that is the right thing to do. But doing the right thing in the wrong way actually hinders your cause.

You can not deny that if some hot-tempered, violence prone fool read about the USS Liberty he would go out to the nearest synagogue and hurt some truly innocent people of Jewish faith. I hope you will concur that the vast, VAST majority of Jews are not involved in these shenanigans.

So am I telling you to ignore the issue? HELL NO! I read up on the USS Liberty and it pissed me off (I had never heard of the incident before). I want the bad guys brought to justice, especially the ones involved on the US side (is McNamara still alive?). But if you're not going to do it skillfully, don't do it. You've already made a bad impression on SS because of your method of presentation and he's pretty open minded.

Go after individuals (use names and specific actions) instead of "Zionists" or "Isreal".

If you feel the need to bring in the religion, protect the innocent by acknowledging that its a small sub-group following some obscure passages and not all of them (as I sincerely hope this is what you believe).

Now what else was I going to fight about... Oh yeah!

Except when I'm in a hard core sci-fi mood, I realize death is inevitable. But if one makes a serious effort at staying healthy hopefully one can be active and enthusiastic right up to the end. Instead of weighing 400 lbs with strangers giving you subQ insulin all day while you watch soap operas from the bed you never get to move from. Maybe the young smoker will see the emphysema guy run out of breath from trying to find the remote control to his TV and rethink his habit. I imagine a few nights in your ED would sway some up and coming juvenile alcoholics to put the bottle down.

Okay, I'm AFK (away from keyboard)until late Sunday. Ya'll have a nice weekend.

yoyomo said...

I just read your read your second paragraph; I'm not German. My niece's husband was training in Germany as part of an exchange program. They left there over 20 years ago.

yoyomo said...

"...the vast,VAST majority of Jews are not involved in these shenanigans."

If you mean blowing up naval vessels, yes I concur completely; otherwise I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions:

"Only one other American town has recognized the heroes of June 8, 1967. Grafton, Wisconsin named its library for the Liberty. Mayor Jim Grant of Grafton experienced a firestorm of criticism from Jewish organizations in nearby Milwaukee for that. Hardened by fire, he was in Zimmerman for this second USS Liberty civic memorial."

"For more than a year, supporters of Israel in Milwaukee and Sheboygan have tried to force Grafton officials to change the library's name. In dreadfully misguided zeal, critics of the library's name picketed the groundbreaking ceremony last summer, denounced the name in a stream of letters to newspapers, persuaded several groups to withdraw financial pledges, attacked the reputations of the principal donors who had suggested the name, and pressured the Grafton school board into forbidding the school band or other school units from participating in the commemoration.

They turned up enough political heat in Washington to cause even the military services to boycott the ceremony. Imagine! No Navy Honor Guard, no Navy band, no military display of the American flag to salute 34 sailors killed in action. No congressman attended or even sent a message.

And, in the worst misdeed of all, the critics have sought to smear the simple remembrance of the USS Liberty tragedy as a manifestation of anti-semitism."

Although people like you may have been totally clueless about this incident, it appears the organized Jewish community was only too aware of it and fully mobilized to keep you in that blissful condition.

SS said...


On your basic point that Israeli expansion and occupation of Palestine is a very serious moral and political problem,
I agree with you,
Dink agrees with you,
There are many Jews who agree with you,
Obama agrees with you,
Thai, may agree with you,
Deb agrees with you,
so why don't you stop insulting us an publicize the extent of the problem to those who don't know about in a way and on a forum where people not as well versed in the issue as we are can understand?

This is what I mean by your blind rage, hatred which is helping no one not the Palestinians, not yourself not anyone.


Thai said...

SS, I think everyone in the world agrees with you.

SS said...

@ Thai,

Funny, that's what I always think!

By the way did you want an invite to one of our Socialist b(ig)- day celebrations? Did you prefer Castro, Lenin or Herschel's birthday? Usually we don't invite non-socialists to all three, what might that do to party discipline?


yoyomo said...

#1 I didn't know historical facts could be insulting

#2 You made a false accusation against me

#3 You made no attempt to refute my point that Hitler's guilt in no way mitigates the guilt of those others who facilitated the murder of the victims by corraling them

#4 You appear to be serenely unfazed by the knowledge that zionist Jews condemned countless other Jews to mass murder for propaganda purposes; I humbly ask - who is more warped, you or I? I submit to you the normal reaction to this reality is rage (I assure you if the camp victims had known of it they would have been eternally enraged)

#5 You are exhibiting classic sysmptoms of the zionist obsession with concealing the true history and nature of zionism because if people were able to see the underlying principles and actions it would lose support to the same extent that nazism and apartheid did

I hope you would at least address points 2&3

And Thai sweetheart, taking potshots and then ducking and hiding doesn't win you any points; you wanna play you gotta man-up

Thai said...

Since I don't even know who Herschel is (was), and Lenin and Castro were such droll figures, but I know there is a Herschel space center named after the guy who discovered IR radiation, the planet Uranus and asteroids so I guess I will chose Herschel.

I hope its a fun celebration. I do like a good fiesta.

Thai said...

Yo, we have VERY different visions of what the word "play" means.

SS, I need to duck and put my helmet on for a moment, the death star seems to have found another firing solution. ;-)

SS said...

@ Thai,

Sorry, I used a spelling only known to his intimates.

Theodore Herzel was the founder of the World Zionist Organization and listed as the founder of modern political Zionism. Though not an expert here are some notes on his life as far as I know. Though from a Jewish family which sadly later suffered in the holocaust his religious beliefs are listed as atheist and he was an enemy of orthodox elements in the movement. A committed Socialist the Israeli labor movement, the most pacifist of Israeli parties, and other Socialist forerunners of post revolutionary utopia like the Kibbituzum can in part be credited to his influence.

You will be an honored guest.


SS said...

Dear Yoyomo,

The only allegation I wish to make about you (not against) is that you are obsessed. Ask anyone else on the blog. There is nothing wrong with having a problem but as Dink said it is hurting your ability to redress a wrong - Please get help.


SS said...

@ above

allegation should read observation


yoyomo said...

The only thing you observed was in your convenient imagination; what justification or excuse did I offer for Hitler's actions. If the zionist Jews didn't actively lobby western governments against accepting Jewish immigrants, Hitler would have still been guilty of illegally eliminating Europe's Jewish population but those Jews would have still been alive somewhere else.

You're the one who has disgustingly tried to turn a condemnation of those who blocked the escape route into a justification for their murder but you end up only excusing those who turned them back at the border.

You can't make that kind of accusation and then pretend you never brought it up.

Thai said...

"disgustingly"... ???

The firing solution missed (rebel sum fed the empire inaccurate coordinates, a regular problem when we aren't all cooperating).

The empire might need time to recompute.

SS, do they serve Mojitos? Or do I have to chose Castro?

I love the idea of a party with middle eastern food... Though I LOVE Cuban food as well so it would be tough choice.

Can I come to both?

Thai said...

Deb, SS how do you post a blog. I just wrote up the first part of my first posting.

Do I email it to Dink or is there a way anyone else can do it.

SS said...

@ Thai

I am sort of proud of myself, ok so the're few enough reasons, but I simply thought that I made one of those numerous errors of detail spelling Herzel- Herschel - - i'd even checked it on Google - - until I went back to my Google check and came up with an early NT Times micro-fiche spelling the same Herzel as Herschel. Boy was I pleased. I've lived through so much that I've even outlived the near eradication on the internet of what I suppose was the original German spelling in favor of the more Hebrew sounding transliteration. Boy are we making progress on diversity in the Middle East.

As for food choices and attendances at the Socialist festivities why don't you and Deb do something really nice and I'll put you both in for Hero of Socialist Labor citations - these really exist. You can sit at the head table than and probably get a mojito or two instead of the black beans and rice served to everyone else.


SS said...

@ Yoyomo

Profoundly sorry


Thai said...

Whether you spell it "Herzel" or "Herschel", I still wouldn't know who you are talking about.

And I love black beans and rice! We used to call this Moros back when I live in Guanacaste Costa Rica 20 years ago working for the ministry of health.

Can I have Mojitos AND black beans and rice? And falafels and babba ghanoush?

Organic would be better but I am really not that picky when it comes to that.

And fwiw, I have read your comments, you have a lot to be proud of.

SS said...

@ Thai

The only way I know to post since Dink created the blog is to let him give you permission via e-mail. You can than post pictures, links, graphs and of course text. Why don't you polish it up until he comes back, it's only a few days, unless Deb knows another solution.

Don't get carried away on the food choices until we get you at the head table, remember "Hero of Socialist Labor" requires a good deed vis a vis the proletariat but we're not picky given that there are few candidates lately.


Debra said...

Thai, to post a comment, you need to sign in. Dink has already done the necessary so that you can post, I think, since you appear.
Sign in, then go to the top right and hit connection. It will give you a window to post a new message. Good luck. Cheers.

Debra said...

whoops, not a comment but a new post...

yoyomo said...

I'll probably be beddie-bye by the time you get in so here is a comparison of the disparate treatment by the western media of religious extremism depending on who is guilty of it. It's by Andrew Sullivan, so I don't think it could be considered partisan to my POV.

yoyomo said...

More goodies about the lobby that doesn't exist:

"On September 12, 1991, in the third year of his presidency, George Bush Sr publicly denounced the Israel lobby, which was storming around the halls of Congress with the intent of forcing through loan guarantees for Israel. The Bush administration was holding up the guarantees in an effort to induce Israel’s Shamir government to stop planting illegal settlements. Bush went on tv and said he was "up against some powerful political forces. I heard today there were something like a thousand lobbyists on the Hill working the other side of the question. We've got one lonely little guy down here doing it." There’s a good case for saying that with those words Bush Sr signed the death warrant for his re-election. True, he had Ross Perot winning 19 per cent of the vote as a third party candidate but he also lost the Jewish vote and his son never forgot it. I’d guess that much earlier in his presidency Obama is on his way to losing it too. The guy must know what he’s doing, and if he doesn’t, there’s always Rahm Emanuel at his elbow to remind him."

Thai said...

We just got a new farmer's market in my town starting today!

And it is pretty good too!

Debra said...

Yoyo, since you're not getting much of a response from other bloggers, I suggest that we manage to go off into the Internet bushes to discuss this, as I suggested earlier.
How do we go about exchanging e-mails wthout EXPOSING ourselves on the web ?
Anybody know ?

yoyomo said...

There's nothing I have to say on this matter that I can't say publicly; it's all a matter of historical record. We can use this thread to explore any facts or conspiracy theories that make sense to us.

What I find especially interesting is people's reactions to inconvenient facts that present themselves. Both Thai and SS have attacked me on a personal basis rather than try to confront the legitimacy of my facts.

They obviously are at least somewhat aware of many of the issues that I bring up but they refuse to discuss them for the simple reason they don't want them aired. It's the standard response of zionist sympathizers; they can't possibly admit to supporting the atrocities of zionism so they try to pretend not to know about them but they can't maintain their facade of ignorance if you keep telling them about it so they tell you you're sick in the head or are bigoted.

Thai is especially cute; he pretends that he doesn't want to say anything negative about anyone (but what he really means is Israel/zionism) but he has no problem saying, or providing links to, some pretty derogatory things about the other Middle Easterners. I don't know why but for some reason he thinks he can bait me with that somehow, he's done it more than once. I hope when his boys get ready to ship off overseas that they remember to thank their Dad and the rest of his generation for giving them a world of perpetual war for Israel.

Few people have the courage of Charlie Reese; he was a syndicated columnist with a major Florida newspaper who hated Arabs and Muslims because he thought they were America's enemies and continually wrote columns advocating bombing their countries to rubble until someone like me threw some very ugly facts about American and Israeli policies toward the Arabs/Muslims.

He couldn't believe what he was hearing so he undertook an extensive research project and totally changed his position for a very simple reason. He put himself in the other guy's shoes and decided that if someone had done to him what the zionists did in Palestine, he too would fight back. Now he is an ardent anti-zionist and considers Israel as a useless liability to the US, a totally one-sided relationship where Israel gets all the benefits and the US pays for all the blowback of Israel's policies and America's support of them.

If you go to you can read some of his archives.

Another author who insists on seeing things as they really are (no matter how ugly) is Paul Craig Roberts.

yoyomo said...

More comprehensive listing of PCR articles.

Debra said...

Yoyo, I don't like conspiracy theories pretty much.
Mainly because I find them reductionist and simplistic, and the REAL truth is more often so completely astounding and unbelievable that most people really CAN'T believe it.
As I have said before on Sudden Debt, the truth is under no obligation to be believable. Only fiction is...
You have NOT REALLY adressed MY comments to the effect that our civilization is STILL founded on largely Jewish attitudes and precepts, and indeed, the overwhelming importance of... MONEY, fiat money is a particularly Jewish construct.
When you realize that great parts of Jewish canonic law are devoted to assessing reparation for prejudice in any form, and that this reparation is financial reparation, then you realize just where WE are coming from.
On another line, Yoyo, I'm going to cite Rabbi Yo'hanan in the Midrach Rabbah, Genesis, XXII :
Rabbi Yo'hanan said :
Abel was stronger than Cain, because it was said "he rose up", that means that he was above.
Cain said to Abel :
"There are two of us in the world, what will you say to our father ?"
Abel was filled with compassion, but Cain drew himself up immediately and killed him.
That's why it is said :
"Do not do good unto him who is evil and nothing bad will happen to you."
And : "He who has the intention of killing you, make sure you get up early in the morning in order to kill him".

These "little" comments go far, in my mind, towards understanding just where the concept of preventive war comes from.
And as far as I'm concerned, this attitude is precisely why Jesus made a radical break with Jewish tradition in his preaching, and not just on this issue. On the very nature of the law, and its interpretation.
But it must have hit you that Christianity, the Christianity that Jesus preached in the Gospels, is not particularly PRACTICED these days.
And the fundamentalist (Protestant) "Christians" spend their time drawing on the Old Testament for justification for their points of view.

Debra said...

I looked at your link on Thai's post about the loyalty oath.
It looks like exacerbated nationalism to me...
Nicolas Sarkozy currently regularly inflames the public with call to subject immigrants to loyalty oaths, indoctrination in French nationalistic propaganda, etc. Isn't it the same thing, Yoyo ?

yoyomo said...

No Debra,
It's not the same thing because France doesn't privledge (at least not in the eyes of the law) any of its citizens over any others. By taking a loyalty oath to France all citizens are availing themselves of full and equal rights under law.

That is most definitely not the case in Israel. It is more similar to forcing black South Africans to take an oath of loyalty to apartheid and to promoting and upholding its implementation.

yoyomo said...

I'm going to have to spend a little time thinking about your 1:11PM post; I'll get back to you tomorrow.

yoyomo said...

"...Jewish attitudes and precepts..."

I'm not sure exactly which ones you're referring to specifically but YES, the issue of the nature of different kinds of money is, in my mind at least, the most important non-envirnmental issue the world faces. If anything drives anti-semitism, it is the concept that a society must pay interest on its money supply to bankers who most people assume are predominantly Jewish.

Even with out the sectarian element, once people come to understand the implications of their money incurring an interest cost to the society that must be covered by higher taxes (almost exclusively on labor), they begin to seethe toward those who benefit from this arrangement. The notion that those who benefit the most from this debt-money system are restricted to a certain segment of society (and not a particularly popular one at that) changes the dynamics of the conflict from one of pure class war (the only legitimate form of struggle IMO) into one of ethnic conflict.

It's not a particulary comfortable place to be because wealth and privledge can provide only so much protection. If the system gets too lopsided, the resentment of those who feel cheated can bring the system down and suddenly those who were at the top no longer have the protection they use to. I've been on other blogs and the level of anger toward the rich in general and rich Jewish bankers in particular is pretty nasty.

The thing that bothers me the most about the way the system is set up is the total dark surrounding it. I took plenty of economics courses in college and there never was a discussion of the nature of the money supply nor an examination of alternatives. It was always assumed as a given and though their were things that didn't seem to make sense, it wasn't until I started reading on the web that I really understood how the money supply works and how it might work differently.

Sovereign credit takes money creation out of the hands of the banks and puts it into the hands of the govt and is less subject to manipulation and destablizing speculation than the current system of uncontrolable money creation by banks and a host of other financial intermediaries. As for spendthrift politicians running the printing presses, I see that as nothing more than scare mongering by the bankers so they can continue to control the money supply.

Politicians would have just as many restrictions under a sovereign credit system in the form of the required publishing of budgets and bond/currency issuance and the base rate of interest paid by banks would go back to the tax payers while the banks would get to keep only the spread between the base rate and the retail rate they charge borrowers. (cont.)

yoyomo said...

I don't know how the different types of banks in the Muslim world work but I've read that control of their banks is the major conflict between the west and Muslim countries. The US is hell-bent on having control of the global financial system and Muslim countries are desperately trying to set up an alternative banking system so that they can circumvent western controls on their commerce and nuetralize the effects of sanctions constantly imposed by the US for this, that and the other.

It is in this area where Israel serves US interests. To establish a new international financial system between 50-60 countries with big differences between them and not a lot of trust, you need an extended period of stability with minimal conflict. By keeping the region in perpetual turmoil, Israel is helping the US forestall the implementation of any alternative banking system. In any case, sharia prohibits debt-money so if that idea were to spread and be implemented in more and more countries, eventually it might begin to appeal to people in the west and that would be a disaster for the 300 year rule of the Rothschilds and their allies over the money supply of western economies.

Without the debt component, sharia money reduces to either commodity money or a sovereign credit system. This conflict between competing money systems could be a major unmentioned cause for the violence between the west/rest. Weak countries trying to escape control are not appreciated by the hegemon and are dealt with accordingly. How the rise of China is going to figure in to this dynamic will be a major shaper of events for the rest of the first half of the century.

China has been accelerating its engagement with most of the former colonies/clients of the west helping them pay off their debts to the west for future deliveries of natural resouces. Now the west, instead of getting cheap deliveries of valuable resources are getting their worthless currencies back instead of China being stuck with a growing mountian of it in their vaults.

To make sure that they receive the promised future deliveries, the Chinese have been expanding their navy beyond their territorial waters. The war in Sri Lanka ended because of China's need for a base in the middle of the Indian Ocean. Up to now, the threat of armed intervention by India (backed up by political support from the EU/US) has prevented the SL govt from crushing the Tamil seperatist movement (LTTE).

For an outfit that was officially listed as a terrorist organization, the LTTE had no problem getting funds from Europe and North America and heavy military/naval hardware from India; they even had jet fighters and artillery and gun boats. Once China and SL signed a naval base agreement, the Chinese navy put a few buffer ships between SL and India and SL told the west to go fuck themselves (the hypocrisy is breathtaking, the west won't even meet with Hamas or Hizbollah even though they have been elected to parliment but was insisting that SL negotiate with the LTTE; the US invaded Iraq and Israel invaded Lebanon and Gaza and Ethiopia [with US backing] invaded Somalia but the west was insisting that SL must not [had no right to] resort to military force to put down the sessionist insurection in its own fucking territory for Pete's sake) and then they proceeded to smoke the LTTE's ass. (cont.)

yoyomo said...

Now China has a secure base from which to protect its African shipments in case the US tries to get any funny idea's from Diego Garcia. India's usefulness to the west has also been proportionately reduced and SL has gotten its freedom from Indian and western bullying although it is now dependent on China. From SL's point of view this vastly preferable. First, China does not have a reputation for meddling in the internal affairs of other nations but even more importantly China is an aspiring hegemon while the US is an apex hegemon. Aspiring hegemons need strong, stable allies to help them confront the apex while the apex only wants weak, unstable victims that it can easily exploit.

SL will be much better off with China for at least the next 50 years and SL is so close to India that China will have no choice but to maintain beneficial relations with it to prevent it from falling back into India's orbit. This will not be a one-shot deal; China will need a base or two in the Atlantic to protect its South American commerce. We stand a good chance of seeing either a major re-ordering of world financial/economic affairs in our lifetimes or the outbreak of a major war to prevent it.

Debra said...

Well, well yoyo, you said one thing in all of the above that REALLY interested me : you said that the Muslim sharia law forbids interest.
You may have noticed in Hell's blog that I call on him regularly to take into account the tussle between Catholic and (future Protestant) theologians over the issue of interest.
Not only the Jews "profited" from the interest issue, and it was small compensation for being the parias of Western culture, and being relegated to the ghetto. The Protestants did too. Don't forget.
The enormous hostility directed towards the Jews in our culture also has something to do with the fact that the Jewish people is still around after some 2000 + years, and how many OTHER people are in that spot ?
The last time I was back home I visited my local senator's office (what an incredible sham that is, maintaining pseudo residence in an individual state after 30 years now...) and told one of his aides that the only thing I expected from Barack Obama was for him to gracefully negotiate the U.S.'s decline without sending the whole planet up in smoke.
I stand by that analysis...

yoyomo said...

"...gracefully negotiate the U.S.'s decline without sending the whole planet up in smoke."

Well that takes us back to your Cain and Abel paradox. How to keep peace on the planet when everyone is attacking their rivals in "self-defense". WW2 was wasted by the west. The entire world was prepared to enter into a system of relations governed by laws and principles so as to avoid a repeat of the horror but the first thing the US did was to insist on the occupation of Korea which was illegal as Korea was neither an agressor nor a belligerent in the war.

Their was no legal basis to occupy it so the USSR insisted that the occupation be temporary and shared which led to the partition of Korea. The Soviets left 1949-50 but the US refused to budge and that is what provoked the North to attack to drive out what they felt was an illegal occupation of half of their country.

I don't need to tell how illegal the partition of Palestine is. The UNSecCoun is not a popularity contest. Its votes are supposed to be governed by laws and not the political expediency of the voting members. Also, the bribing/intimidating of a panel member for his vote is also blatantly illegal but the US has consistently resorted to these tactics and so what was the best hope for the rule of law was turned into a cynical tool of imperialism.

They who did this, may they be cursed by future generations forever.

Debra said...

Well, yo, are you going to show up here again so we can continue our discussion ? I'm waiting...

The Most Fabulous Objects In The World

  • Hitchhiker's Guide To The Universe trilogy
  • Lord of the Rings trilogy
  • Flight of the Conchords
  • Time Bandits