After at least two years on my loony forum of desperately trying to break through to my loonies, in missionary fashion, as to WHY their ideas about the mind/body relationship are tainted by the eternal prejudices of our time, I have decided to see if... YOU GUYS, the cream of the crop, the medical elite, the A+ students of top American colleges will... GET it better than "my" loonies do.
Here goes :
A little background. A week ago I got pounded into the ground following a news post about a chiantific experiment highlighting the... nocebo effect. You know, the... nocebo, which has the opposite effect of a placebo.
I found that.... really really interesting, and proceeded to tie this reaction in to my all favorite anecdote about the power of.... NEGATIVE thinking, to be found in Dale Carnegie's little treasure, "The Power of Positive Thinking", book number one in the endless series of management books that has since hit the racks.
You know, the story about the guy who gets locked into a refrigerator wagon, and, after scribbling on the wall that he is expiring from the cold, promptly proceeds to freeze to death in a... disconnected wagon.
I presume that my readership here is already acquainted with this rather... remarkable incident which has no... RATIONAL explanation.
Freezing to death in a disconnected refrigerator wagon throws a loop in our carefully constructed prejudices about just HOW our thoughts manage to translate themselves into our bodies.
When Freud began opening his mouth about psychoanalysis, he had been working with hysterical patients. Mostly women. And along with Charcot, he had made some rather interesting observations.
Observation one : (this one is for the ophthalmo...) Hysterical blindness exists.
Hysterical blindness is blindness for which the doc can find no LESION. (Not finding lesions didn't stop Freud from finding other things. He found : thoughts, memories which the person had translated into corporeal language.)
Blindness exists also which is the result of organic lesions.
Now we get to the clincher...
If YOU'RE BLIND, and there is no lesion, YOU CAN'T SEE.
THE SAME WAY that
someone who has an organic lesion can't see.
So... if BOTH people can't see, then.... why the fuss about the lesion ?
Could it possibly be because... if there is NO LESION, then we say... "it's all in your head (stupid) ? (We also say this when we can find no EXPLANATION for a phenomenon.)
Freud and Charcot both discovered that people suffering from hysterical complaints had their suffering discredited/ignored/belittled by the medical caste. And they discovered this at a time when docs were doing autopsies at record paces in the attempt to LOCALIZE psychic disease in the body and brain. And... when the docs did those little autopsies on their hysterical patients.... AW SHUCKS, they just couldn't manage to find them littl' ole lesions. (Some people are still looking, by the way, or they are trying to localize in other manners...)
As it turns out, as I mentioned over here a while ago, the current DSM has totally bottomed out the diagnosis of hysteria, which is really not surprising, considering that... the epistemological position of the people who came up with the DSM leaves them with a MAJOR blind spot (hé hé...) concerning hysteria, since the PURPOSE of hysteria is to... challenge an all-knowing, all-powerful (generally masculine) MASTER, and... this is precisely the position of the DSM.
So... since there is NO lesion in your body that means that... it's all in your head (stupid).
You might think that since we came to the realization that the brain was commanding most of what is going on in our bodies, we could admit that, to a certain extent EVERYTHING is in your head, but...
This would be too easy. The logic behind this illogic goes like this : if you have a lesion which can be localized, then, you are on the side of truth. But, if you don't have a lesion you are telling a lie, you're a fake, you're a simulator, etc etc.
(And docs know just how exasperating hysterical patients can be, they are just not GOOD, REWARDING patients that you can tinker with in erector set fashion, do a little bit of manual fiddling, chop off a this, extract a that, and illico presto, magic, the person is CURED !! Good doc, good boy, you've done your job, thank you, a million thanks)
Now... since I KNOW that every advantage has its disadvantage, and every disadvantage has its advantage, I cannot say in honesty that I think that it is MAJOR PROGRESS that we have now decided that for every corporal problem there has to be an EXPLANATION of the lesion type. No. I don't think that minutely scrutinizing everybody in hopes of finding the elusive (illusive ?) lesion (or the "faulty" genome, while we're at it...) is necessarily the answer to our problems.
And... as Thai would say... it costs a HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY TO STICK EVERYBODY UNDER THE MICROSCOPE.
Can you believe it ? In the good old days, before we had all this modern medicine, Freud was such a savvy clinician that he could do an excellent clinical exam and determine whether the patient was suffering from a hysterical complaint, or not.
Don't you wish we had clinicians like that these days ? I sure do... It would save us all a lot of filthy lucre.
51 comments:
Deb, FYI- Thai's favorite psychobabble management book
And re: hysterical blindness
Personally I blame fractals! ;-)
Though on a more serious note, I actually do kind of blame fractals- indeed I can't see how one can possibly understand the mind, behaviors, etc... without resorting to fractal analogies.
... At the very minimum the idea that anyone can apply linear logic to something which is so obviously non-linear is mad. On that we agree.
I have a hunch Street Dog probably has a pretty good grasp on some of this stuff as well. The gooey vitreous may not be the mind, but the retina is getting awfully close (is certainly one of its major filters).
re: "Don't you wish we had clinicians like that these days ?"
Yes and no
And most decidedly "no" if one can diagnose hysterical blindness, but is otherwise not capable of doing anything about it.
Remember, I am kind of "bottom line" oriented- e.g. does it make a difference.
You could think of it as a form of greed in that I want as much as I can get for everyone.
The reality is that there are only so many people on this planet with an IQ- or the more fractal, and controversial, g factor intelligence if you prefer- like Freud.
I personally would prefer that not all of these people be in medicine- even if this affects care for my own family. There are so many other wonderful things they can do with their gift.
So a mid level provider (e.g. a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant) with an MRI at his/her disposal may not be Freud for the neurotic, but he/she may still be pretty good for a great many things.
The Freud can help cure the blindness in the first place (if that is what the patient wants... again only in the end if that is what they want).
But again, this is the view I have that I want to impose on the world. Nothing more.
Sorry, I forgot the link for Thai's favorite psychobabble management book.
Remember? Cooperation?
;-)
"And most decidedly "no" if one can diagnose hysterical blindness, but is otherwise not capable of doing anything about it."
Still the great tragedy of psychology in many cases.
And to lighten the mood, I offer Pure Science .
The Lady Debra,
Street Dog realizes the placebo/nocebo effects permeate our daily lives. In his youth, Street Dog observed this in his family, friends, and in himself! The mind-body relationship is a good example of when reductionism needs to be tempered with holism. The placebo/nocebo effects are as REAL as organic lesions in the sense that your cognition is as much a part of you as your big toe. Street Dog enjoyed Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People", it helped deal with the nuns and teachers of his youth.
" the story about the guy who gets locked into a refrigerator wagon, and, after scribbling on the wall
that he is expiring from the cold, promptly proceeds to freeze to death in a... disconnected wagon"
Street Dog won't fall for that one. The fridge incident could have been a nominee for the Pigasus Award.
Street Dog and Thai realize that the human nervous system pervades our entire bodies. The nervous system influences and is influenced itself(holism). Cognitive "lesions" would be a misnomer. Cognitive disorders are more complex and occur at the biochemical and bioelectrical level. These "lesions" and
certain thoughts/feelings are beginning to be reproducibly imaged. Hysterical blindness is well known to Street Dog. Once Malingering Blindness (liars that Street Dog treated kindly in a non-confrontational manner) and organic lesions are ruled out, Hysterical Blindness can be differentiated. With Hysterical Blindness the eyes, visual pathways, and visual cortex are intact and CAN be clinically differentiated from organic disorders and fibbers with several simple, costless office tests. Hysterically blind patients can actually "see" they just don't "know" it. The hysterically blind have been known to ambulate AROUND obstacles and to SHAKE Street Dog's paw more easily than the truly blind (they are not consciously lying). The higher brain can fool itself in strange ways.
"since the PURPOSE of hysteria is to... challenge an all-knowing, all-powerful (generally masculine)MASTER,"
Hmmm...Hysteria (word with FEMININE root and social flavor) challenging MALE MASTER.
"patients that you can tinker with in erector set fashion...Good doc, good boy,"
Hmmm...ERECTor set (male toys, phallic word), good BOY.
Diagnosis: the Lady Debra is a closet feminist (Street Dog can keep a secret).
The Lady Debra,
Street Dog agrees with the Lady Debra that physicians can be lacking in empathy for patients with psychosomatic complaints. This is an opportunity for physicians to use the verbal placebo effect.
Street Dog agrees with the Lady Debra that modern Psychiatry and the DSM-IV-TR have their shortcomings. Thai would likely agree that physicians misprescribe pharmaceuticals often (Ambien excluded, it's underprescribed!).
"You might think that since we came to the realization that the brain was commanding most of what is going on in our bodies, we could admit that, to a certain extent EVERYTHING is in your head, but..."
Street Dog might disagree with the Lady Debra about the DEGREE to which the neurological system dominates.
Street Dog agrees that WITHOUT any lesions, the little grey cells (Poirot) can influence or cause pain/discomfort, loss of sensory perception, immune system changes, hormonal changes, and so on.
However, Street Dog believes that Deepak Chopra's new age "quantum healing" (assuming it's performed properly, haha) will have little impact on a patient with stage 4 pancreatic cancer, base jumping trauma, or a retinal detachment.
Street Dog agrees with the Lady Debra that the medical profession has its share of hubris (male AND female) and that medical testing and its costs can be corrupted by the filthy lucre motive. Street Dog STRONGLY believes that MUCH of what he and Thai do is the BEST way to improve their patient's health. Street Dog says this taking your thesis into account, and having actually applied PORTIONS of your thesis to his daily life.
All this thinking is giving Street Dog a headache. Street Dog thinks about rubbing HeadOn™ on his forehead. Street Dog realizes HeadOn™ is just wax BUT it sometimes makes him feel better. Wait a minute, Street Dog thinks positively...his headache fades away without any wax!*
*Street Dog begins to suffer from a gastric nocebo effect worrying about the Lady Debra's reaction to his comments about her thesis and the anticipated misunderstandings inherent in blog comments, oh well
Now I called my representative and complaining that monkey collisions were a waste of time!
No bang for the buck as it were
I personally felt a zombie collider would give us a much better picture of the universe but I am told that the guys at CERN thought a zombie LHCb would simply be prohibitively expensive.
re: under prescribing of Ambien
No comment ;-)
re: "physicians can be lacking in empathy for patients with psychosomatic complaints."
Amen
Indeed for all my rabbit barks on the blogs, I strongly agree with this statement... In fact, as I read it, I agree 100% with all of SD's mumbo jumbo ramblings.
It is the viewpoint aspect of these issues we are framing differently, nothing more.
Thai and Dink,
"Re: base jumping
You really do this! Way way cool.
... And It is good to know there will always be job security. I was getting a little worried."
"SD! Sorry that it called you a lunatic and whatnot."
Street Dog thinks base jumping would be fun, but Street Dog is NOT idiot enough to try it. However, Street Dog did experience a FEW tandem and solo skydiving jumps with an adrenaline addicted Californian roomate once. DUDE! IT WAS WAY RADICAL DUDE!
"Diagnosis: the Lady Debra is a closet feminist"
Kitty can be contrarian at times. Usually right before she pounces on your face with claws deployed :)
"The higher brain can fool itself in strange ways."
Its hard to believe that this is adaptive, but evolution has obviously spoken loud and clear on the issue.
"I personally felt a zombie collider would give us a much better picture of the universe"
Clearly, but then we'd have to engineer the virus first and that could take months. And then the hassle of sneaking it into next year's flu vaccine...;)
"Street Dog is NOT idiot enough to try it"
Dude, that is WICKED good judgment.
Thai,
"controversial, g factor intelligence"
Yea, controversial alright. Street Dog read some heavily racist and sexist Human Biodiversity blogs. Psychometrics are ripe for abuse. Can you imagine if Goldman Sachs got involved somehow?
Dink,
Street Dog is sorry to say that he foolishly donated to The Friends of the Super Monkey Collider Fund. Street Dog would like to build a Super Rabbit Collider. He wonders if Thai would volunteer for beta testing.
re: volunteering by body for the collider
Thanks for the kind thoughts
And re: your comments on racism and g factor
Amen
The people who put much weight into g factor discussions are indeed WAY racist.
... In fact I first learned about the topic after reading some of the stuff on the human biodiversity blogs. I was truly stunned.
Anyway, bottom line, while I think they may be on to something interesting, the interpretation many of them have with the topic is offensive beyond belief.
Please don't misunderstand the comment
Thai,
"Anyway, bottom line, while I think they may be on to something interesting, the interpretation many of them have with the topic is offensive beyond belief."
Yep.
"Please don't misunderstand the comment"
Street Dog didn't, no worries. Rabbitians are not known for overt racism or sexism. Rabbitians do have an unusual predilection for Fanatic Fractal Fetishism (FFF).
I like fractals, no denying that, so I guess if that puts me with the bad guys, I must plead guilty as charged.
... And where the bad guys are clever enough to make fractal arguments, the siren in their song will always catch at least a moments attention from this sympathetic ear.
Having admitted my addiction and getting back to the real world of good guys vs. bad guys. You may be a professor, and therefore personally protected, but in this war for the soul of American medicine- a war I like to think of as the forces of simplicity vs. the forces of complexity- you my friend, are an intelligence officer aligned with the forces of complexity, while I am a lieutenant in the front line forces of simplicity.
And amongst the anti-Goldman crowd with their sadly anti-semitic pals, we know who thinks who is the bad guy in this war.
People in glass houses should be careful when throwing stone ;-)
Be well my friend
In fact, as if to make a loyalty oath on this issue- the idea I am being misunderstood on this topic obviously bugs me- I am not sure where it is, but in the archives of this blog, you will find a conversation between SS and I where I talk to him how much these people offended me in the past. If I remember which one of the posts the conversation is in, I will add a link.
The Lady Debra chucked her not very lucrative practice in psychoanalysis three years ago and has been on.. sabbatical since.
Which leaves her mucho free time to... think, play the piano and light into erector set thinking when she is moved to do so, which can be often.
(Actually you guys are NOT as caught up in erector set thinking as some of them thar over in the jungle, and I presume you know it.)
Debra regrets Street Dog's.... scepticism over the refrigerator wagon episode (but... if Street Dog can prove (and this is an area where proof MAY be possible...) that this incident was a... FICTION, Debra is willing to listen.
(Geez now you've got me going in third person.... I could indulge in a little... spychometric comment about the use of the third person but I will not...)
As someone who was (moderately) inititated into that arcane world of psychometric testing, I must say that I have a certain... CONTEMPT for it.
The only tests that I "like" are : the Rorschach, that king of the projective world, that I could spend hours interpreting in psychoanalytic fashion, it is just THAT interesting watching somebody's perception unfolding in front of you, and trying to understand.
And a series of "tests" that I met up with while in training that observed adolescents' capacity to "understand" three dimensional design. Very interesting (no, Dinky it is not a monkey collider test...).
I am sorry that Street Dog STILL thinks that I am a feminist. Just because... during my pregnancies the male docs were insufferably superior and humiliating does not mean that I am a feminist.
I am.... above that kind of thinking (female docs can be just as bad...) and spend hours on my loony blog defending the young men from the.. CLAWS of the female caste, who incidentally scream... "male chauvinism" at every opportunity...
Hey, the particle accelerator is in my backyard (fleeting surge of.. expatriate nationalist flag-waving...). Grenoble is the European center for nanotechnology, and not everybody here is thrilled about our claim to fame.
Professional deformation motivates me to draw your attention to what is implied by calling dark materials... ANTI- matter.
As it turns out... the word "anti" has a long history. It is regularly used in the expression... "antichrist", for example.
And the fleeting reference to good/evil ?
For fun ? Why not ? But... an association remains an... association in this former shrink's book.
Yawn...
I grew up with an ACLU attorney parent, so forgive me if I bow out of the whole feminism discussion, I just don't find it that interesting anymore. There are simply too many zero sum viewpoint on the issue that almost every intelligent person I know is already aware of to make it nothing but a rabbit hole of ultimate boredom.
... But the subject does remind me of that favorite topic of mine- let's call it "aspect" (everything reminds me of this so I am being a little unfair)- and I do love discussions on aspect and linguistics!
Like whether we should have all given former president high marks on his response "it depends on what the meaning of the word is is".
Or that favorite rabbit hole author I quoted once before.
... Perhaps Street Dog will share with us how the metaphor of energy does not apply here ;-)
Thai,
"I like fractals, no denying that, so I guess if that puts me with the bad guys, I must plead guilty as charged."
Bad guys? I was agreeing with you and joking yet again (FFF) about fractals, which I AGREE are powerful tools for understanding the world. We are on the same page here. (Street Dog makes note to quit joking about fractals and feminism)
"You may be a professor, and therefore personally protected"
Street Dog wondered if the term "sabbatical" was misleading. Street Dog is not an academic (it would be against his nature). His father was. Street Dog was using the term meaning "an extended period of rest". Street Dog built his own successful private practice. Street Dog wanted a change in his life. Street Dog chose to close his practice, take some time off. Street Dog took the opportunity to travel the world and to see family and friends. Street Dog is moving and starting over. Street Dog is VERY happy about his decision. Street Dog knows that Thai is in the trenches professionally and intellectually, he respects that very much.
"I talk to him how much these people offended me in the past"
If you are referring to the Human Biodiversity punks, I'm with you on that.
"And amongst the anti-Goldman crowd with their sadly anti-semitic pals, we know who thinks who is the bad guy in this war."
Street Dog suspects that Goldman was not always above board. Thai, do you think I'm antisemitic?
Ah, hell. Street Dog will have to retune his comments in the saloon.
Street Dog Blog Comment Axiom #1 - Blog comments suck for any substantive discussion on any topic.
Street Dog Blog Comment Axiom #2 - Tone of voice is absent with blog comments, be careful to avoid friendly fire
Street Dog Blog Comment Axiom #3 - Bright, passionate people will get themselves riled up at times
Lady Debra,
"I am sorry that Street Dog STILL thinks that I am a feminist. Just because... during my pregnancies the male docs were insufferably superior and humiliating does not mean that I am a feminist."
Street Dog does not think you are a modern "feminist". Street Dog was just goofing around with your occasional frustration with the male species.
"(Geez now you've got me going in third person.... I could indulge in a little... spychometric comment about the use of the third person but I will not...)"
The third person thing happened on a whim when I entered the Saloon. I'm not sure it has any deep psychological meaning in my case.
"I do love discussions on aspect and linguistics!"
Me too.
"Or that favorite rabbit hole author I quoted once before."
Yea, Carroll had a way with words. I liked the Jabberwocky poem.
"... Perhaps Street Dog will share with us how the metaphor of energy does not apply here ;-)"
I've run out of energy talking about energy.
"Street Dog would like to build a Super Rabbit Collider"
I'm too attached to mammals, really. So lacking zombies I propose alligators (those bastards are creepy and FAST).
"it is just THAT interesting watching somebody's perception unfolding in front of you, and trying to understand"
Its fascinating in general. And sometimes obnoxious. And sometimes delightful. And sometimes horrific :)
" Street Dog took the opportunity to travel the world"
Was South America involved? I've heard intriguing stories. It they're true I'll get the 50 or 60 vaccines and go native!
"Human Biodiversity punks"
They're looking for a simple answer instead of the right answer. If you test kids from a geography where the social stressors are enormous, you can easily start forming some false correlations. Then build upon that with error-ridden extrapolations. Very sloppy.
"Street Dog suspects that Goldman was not always above board"
Absolutely. Hank Paulson reeks of malevolence. I believe they actually seek out sociopaths (of any religion or lack thereof).
BTW, no one is calling anyone anti-semitic. A past saloon patron gave us no end of misery on the matter and my head will explode if we talk about it anymore (he was fanatic that the torah commanded its followers to exterminate the rest of us; he was relentless).
Yawn...Thai may be bored with discussions on feminism, Debra is bored with discussions on anti-semitism.
I'm envious that you took time off to travel the world, Street Dog.
I occasionally go through periods when I feel like... walking out of the house on my two feet, and.. keeping going. No stopping. (Well, to sleep and eat, I guess..)
This...option is unfortunately off limits at this time, and will probably always remain off limits...
By the way, careful about projecting...
It takes a hell of a lot to get me riled on a blog, even if my sense of humor is NOT the world's best.
I don't think that I hold a grudge anyway.
Hell... as I tell my loony friends, I have a hole in my head. I don't carry around enough... MEMORY in me to hold a grudge...
Fractaloid pseudo Rorschach Ink Blots
Real Rorschach Ink Blot - this one reminds me (projection?) of one of the Street Rats
Fractal Dimensions of Inkblots - Interesting tidbits on applying fractal concepts to real inkblots
Couple of "aspect" issues to clarify"... I agree blogs are poor methods of communication because they do not easily afford a reader an understand of aspect which body language is so helpful in conveying in real life and which is so critical for cooperative communication.
Indeed, all the issues around Clinton's "it depends on what the meaning of the word is is" illustrate this in a wonderful way. Aspect aspect, and therefore cooperation, are critical in communication.
So with that out of the way and in no particular order:
1. It NEVER even entered my mind that SD is anti-semitic.
2. Goldman was/is holding lots of stuff back imho.
3. Agree with Deb that the anti-semitism discussion is boring and I was stupid for mentioning the subject. The mention of Goldman just sparked other conversation memories Dink rightfully remembers which I threw into the mix for reasons that seem silly now- my bad.
4. The punks are punks and it made me sick to my stomach/anxious to think that mention of one of their issues meant I was suddenly getting lumped in with all their other nonsense- again my bad.
5. No aspect of hostility exists between Thai and SD whatsoever (from Thai's third person perspective)- I was having fun with the idea that in another area of frequent blog discussion (medicine), our roles can be reversed in terms of "bad guy perception"... It is true that the lumping me with the punks fostered this thought.
6. For the record, though I remain true to the forces of simplicity, I think the simpletons are just as responsible for the war between the simpletons and the complexitrons as the complexitrons are for the very same war. Indeed, my message will always remain the same: we are all responsible for this mess (myself included).
7. It is fine to run out of energy about energy
8. Agree with Deb that the third person voice is a little odd, but that is OK too
9. It is absolutely fine to make fun of fractals (my wife sure does)
In fact, it would be a bummer if you stopped as even I think my fetish is odd ;-)
One more caveat re: "... even I think my fetish is odd."
Understand I don't totally think it is odd as to some degree, I can't help it. I just see them everywhere I look- though to be clear it is not an actual seeing them, but it is otherwise hard to describe and I don't know how to put it any other way.
To some degree not commenting on the fractals is like asking someone to not comment on the enormous elephant in the room while you are looking right at the elephant.
Oh well, it is what it is
Thai, I feel like... grasping your shoulder, looking you earnestly in the eyes, and saying...
RELAX !!!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody's getting on your case about fractals here.
So... if nobody HERE is getting on your case about fractals, how about.... YOU not getting on your case either ?
That will be $50 please. (Courtesy of your free shrink...)
Although I sometimes wish that you would MAKE THE EFFORT of translating what I'm saying into what you're saying...
And to our Grand Dame re: "Although I sometimes wish that you would MAKE THE EFFORT of translating what I'm saying into what you're saying..."
If I was unclear, (it was a little tongue and cheek), I was doing just this when I said "Personally I blame fractals", but I admit my response was a little vague.
Perhaps the following metaphor will help:
Think of a world where everything is connected to everything else (kind of works that way when the universe is filled with a substance we have a very large number of viewpoints on but tend to call "energy").
Within this "energy goo" (e.g. our universe), some of it gets together and kind of separates itself from the rest (at least in relative terms).
Being a part of everything else, this separated energy goo can still cause an action on another lump of energy goo. Further, it can become a kind of building block to an even larger structure formed from similar building blocks of energy goo.
Lets call these building blocks of energy goo neurons just for fun.
Again all the building blocks (neurons) can cause action on all the other building blocks (other neurons). Further, larger structures are formed from iterations of building block neurons which have there own "meta" properties in their own right.
So neurons are the building blocks for clusters of neurons which in turn become the building blocks for things the brain.
Should be nothing controversial so far.
Now shift your viewpoint (or the linguist's idea of "aspect") from action to behavior and think of neurons and clusters of neurons as also interacting with each other and the rest of the body, etc...
And again, these neurons are all connected to every neuron as well as every other larger neural structure, etc... And again some of these larger structures are capable of affecting the human body/human behavior.
So the 100 billion interconnected neurons create behavior, judgment, action, emotion, etc...
Now remember two important ideas.
1. 100 billion is a very large number
2. A small change in an initial building block neuron that is used over and over and over will scale its way up into every larger structure that the building block is a member of. We call this property scale invariance and it is a most profound idea. Indeed, if you notice in my link, there is a fractal in the picture on the right ;-)
Ok, long post so don't say I don't give you any time ;-)
Behavior is defined on norms
And while most people are smart enough to realize that when it come to behavior, the idea of "norm" is a kind of cloud as opposed to a fixed point, still there is behavior that is outside this "norm"
Again, 100 billion neurons is a very large number of neurons.
Further people tend to think of the idea of "norm" as occurring according to a standard distribution (also called a Gaussian distribution or Bell Shaped Curve- note to SD that I realize mentioning the Bell Curve in the same thread as g-factor intelligence can be pushing the political envelope. Please have a little faith that I in no way intend to go there).
Anyway, Bell Curves are for things which are random but of little variation- think flipping a coin and randomly getting heads or tails, etc... It is the world of Vegas and controlled risk.
DSM operates according to Gaussian probabilities.
The problem is that it does not work in the world of behavior and neurology for a very important reason which makes almost all DSM epistomologically as well as scientifically invalid.
Behavior (neurology) does not follow Gaussian distributions, it follows Cauchy and its fat tail probabilities.
For behavior is not 50% heads, 50% tails. Behavior is 80% yes, 10% no and 10% maybe or the other way around if the circumstances change, or any permutation of these.
In other words behavioral outcomes are vast- e.g. far greater than the two option "heads" or "tails".
The analogy Mandelbrot (the father of fractals) used that I once read was the metaphor of a blindfolded archer.
If you measure how often a blindfolded archer hits a target in front of him with his arrow, you do not get a Gaussian distribution, you get a Cauchy distribution (physicists call this a Lorenz distribution).
The implication of this to defining "norm" is very very powerful.
So "yes", I agree, DSM is wrong.
"complexitrons"
Dink (in 3rd person) stares at monitor with jaw hanging open. Neural standstill.
"translating what I'm saying into what you're saying..."
I keep meaning to learn logic since it seems a nice blend of language and math. But then even the wikipedia entry is vapid.
"1. 100 billion is a very large number"
Yes. And sometimes you need to run away for a while and indulge in amusing stupidity.
I looked through your Rorschach links, Street Dog.
EVEN BEFORE I clicked on the link for the AUTHENTIC blot that you had selected.. I knew what it was...
Telepathy or smart me ?
Pretty good example of... how CONSENSUAL the ink blots can be, and why, when the test is done correctly (but no employer wants to fork out the filthy lucre for it to be interpreted correctly because this takes... MUCHO TIME, and does not fit into the magical, zappy, instantaneous gratification/meaning/results culture that we are now living in.
So.... I would say that the fact that I KNEW beforehand which blot you had chosen is a pretty good indication that the test STILL has validity.
But... you have to be really smart (smarter than the guy in the pig video who keeps saying "roll over", "beg", etc etc) to be able to use it.
And Thai, thanks for making a really big effort to explain fractals to me. I think I am slowly beginning to see the light. You are a great pedagogue.
See, I hope you learned something through your explanation. I have always found that making the effort to speak in a way that non-specialists can understand me teaches me lots of things, and is good for keeping me on my toes.
Pedagogue? :-(
You did ask me to translate!
How about this simplified version: the idea of original sin has its own building blocks, one of which is the concept of scalability?
And original sin is a building block of the DSM?
Does that work better for for you?
That is all the pedagogy I can muster for today, I will be in the garden launching zombie smashing pumpkins.
Dink, WE (e.g. you and I) complexitrons love the gifts of complexity (cancer treatments, MRIs, expensive colleges, fresh tuna sashimi for lunch, Q-switched neodymium-YAG laser vitrectomies, lunar space colonies, helicopter transfers for accidental penetrating thoracic injuries acquired through base jumping, consensual Rorschach interpretations to give us a keener understanding of our own psyche, etc...).
Of course the complexitrons acquire this complexity by often taking energy from either the simpletons (or other complexitrons) using a technique we have come to know as evolution.
And of course the simpletons are doing exactly the same thing ;-)
Uh... Thai, I was NOT aware that the word "pedagogue" was an insult...
In my (expatriate) book it is a compliment.
Have fun smashing your pumpkins.
The Rules of FRACTAL CLUB
1st RULE: You do not talk about FRACTAL CLUB.
2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about FRACTAL CLUB.
3rd RULE: If someone says "stop" or goes limp, taps out the fractal is over.
4th RULE: Only two guys to a fractal.
5th RULE: One fractal at a time.
6th RULE: No shirts, no shoes.
7th RULE: Fractals will go on as long as they have to.
8th RULE: If this is your first night at FRACTAL CLUB, you HAVE to fractal.
Rules, we don't need no stinking rules!
Warning, I can fight dirty ;-)
These fractal fights can have almost religious overtones when they are all in our head ;-)
Since I am only allowed one per post, I'll stick by the rules, but talking a little smack, you are SO going down! ;-)
Ode on a Grecian Fractal
Thou ravished bride of stochastic self-similarity,
Thou foster child of recursion and chaos,
Cosmic historian, who can thus express
An iterative tale more sweetly than our rhyme:
What leaf-fringed scale invariance haunts about thy shape
Of deities or Thai, or of both,
In Seattle or the composts of Gaul?
What rats or gods are these? What maidens claw?
What mad pursuit this fractal? What struggle to escape?
What pipes and simpletons? What wild ecstasy?
Nice blow!
... And Oh that it was also a low blow as you were clearly prepared for it in advance so I cry foul!
Give me a moment (not fair as I just got home from my local high school silent auction fund raiser where I gave a lot of money and had a lot of wine).
This is the best I can muster right now- admittedly a weak body jab.
But I am going to eat two bowls of Wheaties for breakfast tomorrow! ;-)
Amazing when you just change your aspect a micron, and run new searches like fractal poetry or fractal poems, etc... you suddenly realize how many incredibly intelligent people there are in the world.
God I have to admit there are times when I just love the internet.
There is no possible way I would have ever recognized these people before. These kinds of conversations simply DO NOT come up in polite company (unless someone wants an Emergency Petition to one of my facilities).
Who would have though people would have thought about this regarding poetry.
And of course, crazy to think they would not have thought of it.
Irony- I can be so provincial.
Be well Street Dog
Hmm.... I am getting smarter on this blog.
I... DEDUCE that there was a telephone call, or an E-Mail between Thai and a third party here between my last comment and Thai's ascenscion into fractal heaven in the fractal game below.
Thai, your link to Alice Fulton's poetry site was interesting but I must say that I think that... Alice is NOT as intelligent as you think she is, and definitely not as intelligent as... SHE thinks she is.
If she were... she would have a better idea of the generalist, historic context in which "her" debate is unfolding, and she would recognize it as... universal. Which she definitely does NOT seem to do.
And... she is a missionary. I am a missionary too, but NOT IN/WITH MY POETRY.
That, in my book, is a big big big mistake.
Thanks for the Keats "rappel", Street Dog.
I am... impressed with your culture, and gift for pastiche...
Street Dog and Thai are more intelligent than Alice, in my book... (me too, probably...)
I am going to stay away from any more conversations on intelligence since I already almost got myself in a lot of trouble a little while ago in my love of fractals.
... But let me just add the following: aspect or viewpoint and how one is coming at the topic of intelligence is just as true for intelligence as it is for everything else.
As for Alice herself- again, I may have been a little blinded momentarily by someone who sees fractals on another manifold I totally missed (has been know to happen ;-)
Like all siren's songs, they can eventually wear thin.
Oh deb, from a totally different thread on Sudden Debt on totalitarianism and why free market-ism is no cure to prevent it, I do agree.
Hell says he likes the Japanese model, no?
And I have said that I never seem to notice unhealthy people in totalitarian systems?
I am not sure if you saw this story or not?
Thanks for the links, Thai. I already commented on the Warrior Song a while ago...
For the fat in Japanese society, all I can say is... whew, escaped Japan, good good good.
I think I am older than y'all...
Menopause kind of tends to induce weight gain...
Except if you're working the fields, and I'm not.
And since this is a zero sum issue, I could go out there, work in the fields, get the weight off.. and then have problems with stuff like tendinitis, or whatever...
The public health propaganda campaigns bore me. Over here it's... five fruits and vegetables a day.
The intox is so bad I feel like eating badly to spite "them" some days... Yeah, I know it's moronic, but...
And imagine what they will do when the realize the fat are not "consuming" all the medical resources.
Village behavior can be such a bitch as you and I both know.
re: weight
Go ahead and be fat, again for all my rabbit snarls, I could care less.
I simply use the example to illustrate my larger point that we always seem to notice it is someone else's car which is responsible for global warming.
But I'm not fat. I just don't look like I used to when I first got married.
On my loony forum, I stuck a post in on this (female...) subject.
When "you" (ha, not YOU, Thai...) approach menopause, you have the choice between.. looking like Mamie Nova or... the wicked witch of the west.
It's either... kilos or... wrinkles.
And when you lose them thar kilos, all of a sudden the wrinkles start looking like they were carved in Mount Rushmore.
You street mammals have been prolific! Here is some belated rat commentary:
I will be in the garden launching zombie smashing pumpkins.
"Kids, grab your coats! Dad needs help building a pumpkin trebuchet!" Awesome:)
Dink, WE (e.g. you and I) complexitrons love the gifts of complexity .....
ABSOLUTELY! (Hmmm, I love that word and use it frequently. Why is the world "solute" in it? Deb, OED?)
....Of course the complexitrons acquire this complexity by often taking energy from either the simpletons (or other complexitrons) using a technique we have come to know as evolution.
And of course the simpletons are doing exactly the same thing ;-)
I had a thought, but it seems to have wandered off. I like what you wrote, though.
6th RULE: No shirts, no shoes.
JFC! Maybe I should learn some kick-boxing before grabbing my calculator.
Religious Fractal?
You said religious fractal, but the link said erotic fractal. This pleases me to no end.
What mad pursuit this fractal? What struggle to escape?
Very impressive, SD! It really should have been its own post!
God I have to admit there are times when I just love the internet
ABSOLUTELY!!! (um, Deb...)
Street Dog and Thai are more intelligent than Alice, in my book... (me too, probably...)
Conspicious omission; are you still pissed off at me about the death penalty? ;)
"Metabo"
From different ED sources I've heard stories of finding items in the folds of obese patients (remote controls, sandwiches, etc.). AH, C'MON PEOPLE!!
re: Conspicious omission
Agreed
Oh let's call it conspomission so that Jabberwocky and portmanteau remain our theme of the day!
It seems as much fun to keep things iteratively stochastically self similar.
(I'm not sure this is a portmanteau or not, but I didn't find any previous use via google)
Spazmolarity: measure of concentration; the ratio of emotionally stable individuals versus unstable in a group.
Hmmm. Perhaps even better would be using it to describe an individual's emotional state. Example: "I was isospazmolar until I saw the second alligator".
dinky, mea magna culpa for forgetting you (sounds of background whimpering...) in my comment about how intelligent all of us Street Rats are.
Specially as you seem to have coined a little word with "trebuchet", right ? May I delicately suggest... "trebucher", if I am reading you correctly ?
I have my own favorite portmanteau, which is... "chiantific". I will let you WORK to figure out which words it combines...
A Twist (nay slaughter) of an Ode to Doomers and Apocaholics Eveywhere
Some say the next great symmetry break is fire,
Some say the next great symmetry break is ice.
From what I've seen of our pattern's recursion
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if we must transform over and over,
I think I know enough of stochastic chaos to say
That for a transformation from symmetry to chaos
Ice is also great
And most definitely would suffice.
Oh good, Thai, you are SO much more intelligent than Alice (no I'm not kidding...)
WE ARE HAVING FUN WE ARE HAVING FUN WE ARE HAVING FUN
At least, I am.
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