Curiosity Over Pride (FYI: To comment, send an e-mail to scifidink@gmail.com)

Monday, October 12, 2009

Dover Beach

This is my second attempt to post this. We have been having connexion problems, and I see spectres of the zero sum problem involved in the fact that it is at this very moment in time when we have the technological means to reunite us all, all over the planet, that our tendencies toward individuation and privatization can sap this very achievement in the very same movement. Is this clear to you ??

Matthew Arnold, the late 19th century author of "Dover Beach", one of the greatest, and best loved poems in the English language, was a very modern man. He lived through.. what WE are living through (there really is no excuse for our constant exceptionalism, the human condition has remained the same for millenia now...). He was a poet, a critic, a genius. And... Dinky, there is NO WAY to prechew poetry, unlike philosophy, history, and the rest...

"The sea is calm tonight.
The tide is full, the moon lies fair
Upon the straits -- on the French coast the light
Gleams and is gone ; the cliffs of England stand,
Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay.
Come to the window, sweet is the night air !
Only, from the long line of spray
Where the sea meets the moon-blanched land,
Listen ! you hear the grating roar
Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,
At their return, up the high strand,
Begin, and cease, and then again begin,
With tremulous cadence slow, and bring
The eternal note of sadness in.

Sophocles long ago
Heard it on the Aegean, and it brought
Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow
Of human misery ; we
Find also in the sound a thought,
Hearing it by this distant northern sea.

The Sea of Faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the world.

Ah, love, let us be true
To one another ! for the world, which seems
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain ;
And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night." 1867

Samuel Barber set "Dover Beach" to music, and Fischer-Dieskau recorded it. I can not read the poem without hearing the music now, but... no matter. Both music and poetry are beautiful.
If you read the third strophe aloud "the sea of faith...", you will notice that it is in two breaths, and that at the end of the second breath, you will be dying for air, and will be forced to inspire on.. "ah love". Very well done, that. Try reading the poem aloud. Poetry is made to be read aloud.
Thai, this poem structures Ian McEwan's book "Saturday", about a day in the life of an eminent London neurosurgeon, a day during which his assumptions about his world, his work, his ethics, everything, are put to the test. You would enjoy this novel, I think. It would... challenge you.

This is not zero sums, but... I think that it is fair to say that historical apres-coup, the fact of looking back on our collective history has the effect of convincing us that the world in which our predecessors lived MUST HAVE SEEMED less confusing, less problematic, more simple, sometimes BETTER to THEM than ours does to us...
This is sheer delusion...

12 comments:

Thai said...

I would love to hear the poem recited. Do you have a recording that you can paste?

I see my view of the world in this poem so I am unclear how it differs?

Please share

Thai said...

Also, I am a little confused by this statement:

"This is not zero sums, but... I think that it is fair to say that historical apres-coup, the fact of looking back on our collective history has the effect of convincing us that the world in which our predecessors lived MUST HAVE SEEMED less confusing, less problematic, more simple, sometimes BETTER to THEM than ours does to us...
This is sheer delusion."

1. What is "apres-coup"?
2. The fallacy of using the past to predict the future is at the very heart of "zero sum" thinking. Inductive reasoning which David Hume first attacked is clearly epistemologically wrong.

Do you think I am saying this?

There is a wonderful book very popular on Wall Street and on Hell's recommended reading list titled The Black Swan
(look for yourself on Sudden Debt on the right hand side of the page).

If you open the cover of The Black Swan, you will see that the book is dedicated to Benoit Mandelbroit, the father of fractal mathematics.

Perhaps you might enjoy a post on statistics?

For you can think of randomness as as a spectrum flanked by two extremes: one the side being where randomness is really quite small (like flipping a coin where there is only two possible "random" outcomes- heads or tails) and the other where the randomness is infinite (like asking where an infinitely strong blindfolded archer will shoot their arrow in space- the possibilities are infinite).

Fractals are part of the randomness of the infinite, if this helps.

They are the randomness of predicting the future using the past as a guide.

Debra said...

Apres coup means looking back.
It is a way of understanding the observation that when WE look back on time, the choices available to our predecessors seem... OBVIOUS.
But... to our predecessors, they were NOT obvious. Their world was every bit as confusing to THEM as our world is to us.
In terms of using the past to predict the future, repetition, and thus a certain amount of determinism IS part of our makeup. But it does not account for EVERYTHING we do. If you will, it sets the general theme that we embroider on, taking into account differences of temperament, of time, etc.
I still say that for INDIVIDUALS, the apple never falls far from the tree.

Thai said...

Re: "I still say that for INDIVIDUALS, the apple never falls far from the tree."

I am totally lost re: whatever you are talking about here

Did I say they did not?

This comment seems like out of left field to me so we are clearly talking past one another- my apologies.

... Indeed I seem to remember you tended to poo poo the determinism of genetics, etc... which is a form of "apples not falling far from a tree" so you have lost me on what you are talking about.

So if you are saying that as a general rule we can use history as a guide to the future, I would absolutely agree.

In general

Unfortunately this kind of "modeling" is wrong when it is wrong (and it is hard to predict when it is wrong)- hence from time to time we get into really big trouble with this kind of approach.

In science we call these "inflection points" or "phase transitions" and you can think of examples like when water turns to gas or ice.

So if the way you always think about water is during the assumption of a narrow temperature band, then when temperatures move into a completely new band you will have no preconcception of ice and hence be completely unprepared for all that ice implies, etc...

Indeed, a form of this issue is occuring all over the world right now on your evening televiosion news, namely "markets are not always efficient or correct".

Of course, the take away message most people are hearing in this discussion is absolutely NOT correct either, namely markets plus government must therefore be more efficient than either a market system alone or a government system alone...

Indeed, this is the most common fallacy most people (including Hell) are taking away from this discussion as it is simply incorrect in every way to say that there is any other permutation which is better.

... And indeed like most things in life, it is probably worse to panic after the catastrophy has already occured.

Actually, to me this is where cooperation (or politics) and faith, etc... come into play.

To me, it is at these times of phase transition, when things (or at least the perception of things) have completely changed, that faith and cooperation are at their most important in holding things together.

Kind of like people on a football team continuing to maintain their positions.

I think Dink will verify that this has been my message from day one.

But I understand it is tough as cooperation and faith are really tough when the hubs look shaky during phase transitions.

The world according to Thai in a nutshell ;-)
\
And "yes" I know it is abstract

Thai said...

I read this quote from a Vietnamese Buddhist tonight and like it:

“The best way of preparing for the future is to take good care of the present, because we know that if the present is made up of the past, then the future will be made up of the present. All we need to be responsible for is the present moment. Only the present is within our reach. To care for the present is to care for the future.”

Thich Nhat Hanh

Dink said...

"Their world was every bit as confusing to THEM as our world is to us."

I'm gonna have to disagree. I believe they were more confused. We know about DNA and plate tectonics and such. We're lucky bastards in comparison.

"the apple never falls far from the tree."

Metaphor shear. Apples are not conscious; they do not make choices.

"To me, it is at these times of phase transition, when things (or at least the perception of things) have completely changed, that faith and cooperation are at their most important in holding things together. I think Dink will verify that this has been my message from day one."

Your honor,the Thai-construct has been pro-cooperation for the entire time that I've been aware that there was a Thai-construct in existence. Testimony complete.

" To care for the present is to care for the future."

True enough. I've always liked "How you do anything is how you do everything". Essentially, one's decision software is generally consistant.

I liked the Buddhist monk from "40 Days of Rain"; when Frank tried to explain the Prisoner's Dilemma to him he didn't understand why everyone wasn't "Always Generous". I briefly considered a tattoo that said that. I still consider a tattoo that says "subversion". This is from "Diamond Age". A rich guy wanted software to educate his daughter; he considered subversion an important trait. Not deception of others, but the willingness to question everything.

Debra said...

Lots of stuff to disagree with here...
Determinism : I do not totally pooh-pooh (for Winnie ? who knows...) the genetic factor. BUT.... I have always said that using our genes to predict our traits, our behavior, and our illnesses WITH CERTITUDE is... crazy, and you will agree with me on this one, Thai...
Most people recognize, at some point in their lives, that a kind of determinism is at work. For example, they fall in love with... blond women with green eyes (a really simplistic example, for sure, but I'm inventing...), or they consistently get into relational trouble at their jobs, and sometimes when they recognize that they are... repeating situations they have already repeated, that's when they USED TO come to me for help (and still come to my husband).
There is determinism at work here, but... is it ALL that is at work ? No.
In terms of "it is incorrect to say that any combination is better", I will call your hand, Thai, because... it all depends on what you see as... BETTER. Are you coming out with an ABSOLUTE definition of "better", in which case you are absolutely right, OR... a relative definition of "better", in which case you are wrong.
The "solutions" that we propose and find inflect the human animal's vision of himself, his neighbor, his government, his society. And in each new "solution", these sometimes conflicting variables change relation and importance. SO...
Examples : did you understand my Internet remark above ? Without doubt, our understanding of what is the domain of the "individual" must inflect on what we want our government to BE and DO for us.
AT THE SAME TIME that we do NOT want to pay taxes, we seem to increasingly want SOMEBODY to take care of us, protect us, etc. (a very human desire, by the way...) What kind of society will we construct to fulfill that need ? Assigning this role to the government (anti-smoking campaigns, the explosion of legislation to "protect" us) is ONE way to fulfill this need. AND, this way of fulfilling the need has its disadvantages, of course. Because our individual capacity to innovate, to be curious, to change CAN be diminished with TOO much protection, right ? But... too little protection, that definitely does NOT stimulate creativeness either.
I like the ice analogy. It helps me think.
Thai, sometimes I sense that you think I am accusing you of something. I'm not.
But I DO like it when you try to translate your models into something I can understand. And I'm sure that this will help YOU understand better your grasp on your models, too.

Thai said...

Deb re: "Lots of stuff to disagree with here..."

But I agree with 100% of what you just said and at least the way my models work, what you just said completely agrees with everything I said before, etc...

Really, 100% agreement

Thai said...

Got this as an email in my inbox today: predicitions are tough.

Dink said...

"I have always said that using our genes to predict our traits, our behavior, and our illnesses WITH CERTITUDE is... crazy"

But maybe someday we'll have some decent genetic markers, some decent way of measurement of personality traits. Its one thing to have someway say "I think you're over-anxious", another to have them say "you tend to have more "x" receptors in "x" area of the brain and our data correlates this towards a tendency for anxiety compared to the general population". You don't have to have faith, you can chew on the data yourself to see if you agree.

"we seem to increasingly want SOMEBODY to take care of us, protect us"

Not everyone; many perhaps.

Crisis/critical- any chance you feel like looking into the origin of this word? I like to use it for the whole phase transition concept, but I don't know the etymology.

Debra said...

Dink, re you desire to have access to genetic markers that will enable you to KNOW with CERTAINTY...
Two comments : I find this problem on my forum with my loony friends. Many of these people have "officially received" the diagnostic of schizophrenia from one shrink or another.
But... this diagnostic differs from one doc to another. And once they've received it, they... wrap themselves in it. It becomes a comfortable (or uncomfortable...) piece of clothing/identity that they can refer to, point to when the going gets tough, in their eyes, and in the eyes of others. They "use" this diagnostic to foster their sense of their own "difference/exceptionalism", and they attribute their difficulties to... their "individual" ILLNESS, instead of attributing them to... the "GENERAL human condition. The effect : I'm sure that Thai can tell us what it means for people.. NOT to die of old age any more, but... from heart disease, etc. From a general SHARED condition to an individual (more) UNSHARED one.
Second point : you SHOULD read Macbeth. Thirty years that I have spent on the play... At the beginning Macbeth meets three creatures who tell him : Hail Macbeth, Thane of Glamis, Hail Macbeth, Thane of Cawdor, Hail Macbeth, that shall be King.
And... BECAUSE a messenger arrives telling him that he is NOW Thane of Glamis (the former was a TRAITOR who the king has destituted and sent to the execution block...), Macbeth decides that... he WILL be King. But... what does this mean ? And he says later "if chance will have me King, then chance may crown me without my stir". But he goes ahead and kills the King DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT HIS DIRECT INHERITOR, and that the murder will not theoretically procure the crown for him.
The play SHOWS and develops how Macbeth has let himself be duped by the nature of language. He.. has wanted for all ambiguity to disappear, BUT... language IS ambiguity, and this ambiguity will NEVER disappear. So... Macbeth brings himself, his family, and all England down in this desperate, foolish, and MAD attempt to make things SAY with CERTAINTY.
This MAD attempt to make things say with certainty is partly responsible for the rise of statistics, graphs, and can be seen in Lacan's last years.
But... please take my word for it, HAVE FAITH, you would NOT want to live in a world where all ambiguity has disappeared. It would be.. a nightmare.

Thai said...

Non-linear issue

Some genetic results tell you what will be to a level of certainty I am comfortable using the word on a practical level

Some genetic results give you a pretty good clue but that is all (e.g. not certain but likely)

Some genetic results make thing more or less likely but the probability are so poor for prediction purposes that on a practical level they are meaningless as a test

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